Transcript: Helpful Content Update Killed Traffic so I’m Pivoting – Denise DS493

Doug: Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to the Doug show today. We get an update from my good friend Denise and kind of cool. We met a few years ago at a conference called FinCon and that was down in Orlando. And then she and I both went to FinCon in New Orleans. We got to hang out for a few days. Back in October.

I think it was seems like so long ago at this point, but we haven’t got an update from Denise. We’ve done many interviews in the past, so we’ll be sure to link up and you can get some of the history today. We’re going to talk about generally her direction, what she’s going to be working on in the future.

But the thing is, Most of the interviews in the past, we talked about the successes that she had, but like many people, there were Google updates that impacted not only her traffic, but her revenue. And for a lot of people, it was, I’ll say devastating. So I’m not sure the numbers yet, but I think we’re going to be able to get into some of those details and we’ll kind of have a meandering conversation, but I think it’s one that needs to happen.

And a lot of other shows and podcasts are not really talking about sort of the The fact that a lot of sites got flipped upside down and shaken and people don’t really know what to do, even if they’re SEO experts. So Denise, that was a, so harsh intro, but how are you doing today?

Denise: I’m doing great, Doug. Thanks for having me back.

Doug: You got it. So we’ve been texting back and forth and I know coming out of the fall. Again, we had all these Google updates and you were, you were taking a little time to think about next steps. So before you spoil everything and tell us the answer, like, did you figure out what you were going to do and you could just say yes or no?

Denise: Not yet. Not yet. Okay. Working on it

Doug: It’s pretty tough. So let’s set the stage a little bit and let us know where your sights were when things were going well. Okay. Like last year, say whatever, spring, summer, fall. I’m not sure sort of when you described that, but what, what was it like in terms of like the sites that you have, the traffic, the revenue, kind of a picture of your portfolio.

Denise: All right. So last year I had, I started the year making just under 3, 000. So I think it was the first time the two websites. surpass 3, 000 was around Christmas time. And then it, it took a dip in the beginning of the year and then it started going climbing back up. And then it was a steady climb until.

August, September were the highest months that I had ever. So the two sites combined, I got close to 6, 000. So I think it was 5, 800 or so. And this was like very clearly going up. There was like a major, I put a lot of effort in improving content, adding new content. So I was making a lot of progress with that.

And my goal last year, if you remember from the previous, from our previous talks, was to be making 10, 000 combined. With the two sites. So I’m not sure I would have hit 10, 000 with the, with the speed that it was going, but I mean, August, September, you know, I was at that almost pretty much close to 6, 000, right?

So I made a lot of progress from the beginning of the year to the end where things are now I am somewhere between 2, 500 and 3, 000 with the two sites combined. So there was a big I took a really big hit actually, it wasn’t because it wasn’t really a big hit that happened, but it looks like it was the August update.

There was a little bit of a dip. And then September with the helpful content is probably when the site, the both sites really got the biggest impact. And then there was like a little glimmer of hope around October that I saw kind of like the slight trend going up and then it just, you know, went back down again.

So since then it has been. like the steady decline, right? It’s not that it’s like it just took one hit. It’s just kind of, I think it’s just the compounding effect of you’re losing rankings and then you just start to see that You know, the traffic going more and more down as, as time goes by. So, but yeah, but that’s where I am now.

Like we’re, we’re kind of in the two thousands now and not the three thousands.

Doug: All right. So a little bit less than where you were at about one year ago. Yes. All right. When you saw the traffic starting to drop, what were your. First plans of action say, yeah, like in August and October, it sounds like those are kind of the two spots where things happened and you’re thinking, Hey, what do I do now?

Denise: So August, I really didn’t notice that much because it was also kind of the, the end of the summer. And there is a seasonality to, to both my sites cause they’re both in the travel niche. So I didn’t really think much of it when August kind of, there was a slight decline and it wasn’t much, right. It’s just.

When I went back after and I saw that, you know, it started going down and it was right when there was a Google update is when he clicked. So I really didn’t pay attention until the helpful content update when it was. Visibly going down right when I really saw numbers all of a sudden, you know, dropping like crazy from one day to the next.

And I’m like, Oh, what’s going on? But, and this is when everybody started panicking. And I said, I’m not, I’m actually not going to do anything. Let me wait until. So until the update is over try to get more information, figure out what the heck is happening. So I did read the content update, try to understand what Google was doing, and then it was like, well, I really don’t understand what’s going on, right?

So it was kind of, I think. I got into the denial mode like everybody else that it was just like, no, this is just going to go back up like Google is going to backtrack it. So I really didn’t have a plan one because I really didn’t know what to do because it didn’t seem like everything that Google was saying, it didn’t seem like it applied to me.

I mean, obviously, there’s always like, okay, maybe, you know, this article, really, I just wrote that for SEO, right? But there wasn’t anything that you could point out and be like, okay, if I do this. I will fix it and I can make it better because most of it, it was just all of a sudden there’s eight different links ranking above me that were all Quora, Reddit and you know, travel travel forum type of things.

So I’m like, well, I really don’t know what to do in this situation because it’s not like my website lost ranking is that they just. Put all of this other stuff ahead of me. So, yeah, so I didn’t really have a plan. It was just to wait and see when I first noticed.

Doug: So you read the HCU documentation back in October or whatever.

Yeah. So if you had to distill it down and say three or four sentences, what did it say? What was your takeaway?

Denise: I think the biggest thing was, you know, obviously, AI is okay. They, they didn’t mind that. Then I think there was only really two things. It was AI content is okay. And right for humans, which doesn’t really tell you much, right?

Because in one point they say, look at what’s ranking and then try to use that content, but then, but no, don’t write for Google, right? For people. So it’s like, well. Okay, so that was pretty much the gist of it from what I remember.

Doug: Okay, and you, you mentioned one thing and I’ve tried to ask this in some recent interviews.

So if someone came to you and they said, Hey, I have a website and I want you to coach me, Denise. If they brought your site to you and said, you know, what do you see? Like, is there anywhere where I can improve it and you did mention like, Hey, maybe you wrote some articles for like a pure SEO play, which I mean, when it comes down to it, like, that does make sense if you’re running this like a business.

Right? So like, yeah, maybe not every piece of content, but there’s some. Some things that maybe you need to test, or maybe it’s proven to be profitable in another sort of set of keywords. But the point is if someone brought you your site, is there anything else where, you know, you maybe cut corners or didn’t do as good of a job as you could have?

Denise: So if they brought my site to me for a meeting and look at it from a critical perspective, I think that there’s definitely a lot of room for improvement. Right? Like if you look at it I think we, we tend to lose sight of what it is that we’re trying to do. And for me specifically, both my sites were acquired.

So my intention with those sites was. purely financial, right? It was like, let me get a website. I’m going to, I’m going to work. I know this kind of stuff. I like SEO. I like marketing. I think I can take something and, and make money with it. So I think my intention with a site was to make money and not to necessarily serve an audience with travel content.

So probably. I mean, I don’t know how Google would be able to tell this from the content because a lot of my content is much better than, than things that are out there probably ranking higher. But I think that that would be something that I might notice, right? Because it would be like, why I would ask myself, why are you doing this?

Why you’re working on this website? And it’d be like, well, I bought it because I thought I could make money off of it. So, you know, even though I tried not to, you know, the content doesn’t say anything like that, right? Like I have very little affiliates on the site. I could lean a lot heavier on credit card travel and that kind of stuff.

And I didn’t, I was really focusing more on the content aspect of things and really sharing travel that I did using my own photography, that kind of thing. But I think the, why the website would be the biggest thing, because if the reason for me to have those websites was, I really love to talk about travel and I want people to know and share my experiences and I can help them travel better, whatever it is.

Then you start to come up with ideas for products and other things that you can serve. And then you start to build a brand. So that would be the biggest thing.

Doug: That could be valid, right? But then, New York Times bought the Wirecutter, right? Yep. They didn’t do it for fucking charity, right? And they, they were doing it for a very specific reason.

And then even further, right? At least New York Times acquired something where Brian Lamb, like, created the Wirecutter originally. But then you look at some other sites that are, whatever, like Business Insider or like all these other.

Denise: They’re all businesses, right? At the end of the day.

Doug: They were like newspapers before and now they’re telling me what whatever adult personal massager to use or what I don’t even know what they review right but it’s like completely out of their area of expertise, but they have these reviews so like.

It’s an interesting point if you’re, if you get into like a philosophical discussion with someone from Google, but at the end of the day, it’s like, well, what about this? And what about this other site, which, and I think that’s what makes it really hard to figure out what the updates do, because we could find examples of AI content doing really, really well.

So I don’t know if that’s, that’s something that you’ve seen in these updates and it’s not even that great of content and it’s, you know, sometimes clearly, I know these get hit occasionally, but I think the stealthier ones, I mean, they still get away with it. So, well, quick transition here. AI content.

Have you played around much with it? You have a few websites, so I know you may have experimented some

Denise: Yeah. I haven’t posted anything that is super new. Straight up AI. I used it a lot more for kind of brainstorming getting ideas. So if it was like, you know, like 10 things to do in X place I would put it on there, like, you know, give me something that is not the typical 10 things that you would do, right?

So I kind of like use it for brainstorming, but not not posting content directly on any of the sites have not done that even though Google says it’s okay. I don’t think that that’s the right way of doing it. I did come up with some like pretty cool ways for getting content done pretty quickly using my own thoughts, right?

Which is essentially like you can have ChachiPT interview you. So I would just use voice, you know, he would ask me certain questions with the intent of creating an article and then use my own voice. I have my own answers and just essentially edit what I was saying, and then I go back in and tweak it, but I have not, like, just say, here, just create an article with, you know, with these things.

Here’s an outline, just write it for me. Have not done that. And I think that that’s also like very lazy content for people are doing that. I mean, I think that that’s why we are, you know, there’s With AI, there’s so much people publishing a ton of, like, crappy content now that I think that’s why Google is having trouble now going through all of it.

And then the people who are putting in a lot of effort to put out good content might be suffering. So yeah, so I think it’s kind of lazy for people to use AI in that sense, but I think it’s very good for brainstorming, creating processes tweaking headlines, that kind of thing. I think that that’s, that’s good.

Doug: It’s been great for past assistants, so I’m doing so you can just put in your transcript and then get the show notes and then even turn that into a blog post. And in this case, just like you said, it’s using our conversation. So it ends up being pretty unique and Actually, even if we use someone else’s outline as the starting point, like our conversation will be unique.

And if we throw in some quotes, then it’s, I mean, you can’t even really distinguish it. I mean, that is what a lot of your news content is like it’s commentary on something that happened and then people just talk about it. So I think that could be another way to distill down like something. That is really conversational and then turn it into a piece of content.

Denise: Yeah, for sure. And then you’re feeding AI your content, right? So it’s only, and I actually tell it like, do not put anything that I have not said. Right. So it’s like only use what I’m giving you. So then it filters down to, only my opinions, my thoughts, perspectives, et cetera. Okay,

Doug: cool. And what else was going on with like the, I guess the helpful content update period of time.

So traffic went down, you kind of observed for a little while, I believe. Ad revenue was a little bit up and down over the year. So how did ad revenue look for you through the year? If you look at RPM basis.

Denise: So RPM, when I initially got the site was probably at around 30 and then I got it up to, it was between 40 and 50 was the normal.

And then during the high months, like that summer, like I actually got it up to like 75 on, you know, a big percentage of, of of those summer months. And then it went back down to more of like the You know, 45 50 is pretty the standard. But yeah, but I was getting days that, you know, I hadn’t, hadn’t had like days over a hundred dollars.

And then all of a sudden it’s like consistently between a hundred and 120 per day on just a one site. Right. And then the other one site too, is a little less because it’s mostly European traffic. So even though we got more traffic than no, actually it started out making more, having more traffic and then it flipped, but the RPM on that side is in the 20 to 25 range.

So it was a lot lower, but right now is gone. It’s still at that 40, but because I lost so much traffic, my organic traffic on site one, I think it’s down to 20 percent of what it was. So had it not been Pinterest kind of holding it together. You know, it would have been like, it would have been a lot worse.

Doug: Wow. All right. So it’s just devastating. The numbers, and I’ve heard this again and again, a lot of people are not willing to come on the show and talk about it much. So I appreciate you doing this. So where do you go from here? Do you have any other revenue streams that you were working on or anything else before we start talking about like how you’re pivoting?

Denise: Yeah, so just to remind everybody or tell somebody who hasn’t heard the story, last year, I left my corporate job. So I worked until the end of January and then I left the corporate job. They ended up calling me back a few months later to come back as a consultant. So I’ve been doing some of that work on the side.

So kind of, you know, kind of like a part time doing my job part time Which has been great, right? Because that, that helped through all of this. And when the Helpful Content Update started happening, well, actually before the Helpful Content Update, because I had the travel sites, one of the things that I had done was I did a travel agent certification.

So I joined an agency, did all the training. And my intention was to leverage that with my travel blogs. What ended up happening was I had this idea and I shared this with Doug that I’m like, you know, I see this opportunity in the travel space that I’m going to build a site, brand new site, start from scratch really lean in on the EAT.

Put a lot of, you know, my expertise. It’s show my photos, show my identity, put everything on there. Not that my identity is not on the other sites, it’s just you know, it’s a travel blog kind of thing. This one, there’s a phone number, there’s an email address, there’s certifications, there’s everything on there.

So no reason for Google to punish me for not having all of that listed. Publish some content and started getting leads. So I’m getting probably about 60 visitors a month on that website. Brand new domain, brand new everything. But over the past 30 days I sold six or eight. I think I have a few more like lined up, but several trip packages, right?

So I’m getting commissions on those as well. Now the selling Doug before we got on the call. There is an issue though, because my intention was to actually sell that site if it worked out, but because I published so little content on it, now I’m scared to put more content because I may get, you know, bombarded with leads and I really don’t want to deal with travel clients.

If you guys travel agents out there hats off to you because I don’t have the patience to do that. So I’m kind of, you know, trying to figure out what to do with that website. It’s a good problem to have, but. You know now my my phone is ringing emails are coming in and I have to deal with people wanting to buy travel But the biggest thing was I really lost the motivation to work on the two travel sites So over the holidays kind of took a step back started thinking what was really, you know, what really?

My thing what do I want to do? and the goal is just not to go back and get a job. That’s, like, that’s my priority. So, looking at everything, all of the sites that I saw, people that had really good websites, everybody got hit. So, I don’t want to be at the mercy of Google anymore. I think that that’s something that I’ve made a decision.

Content is great. There’s that passive income aspect to it, but I think you gotta build something else. So, I’m working on defining who I am as As a professional, how I want to put up, put myself out there as a creator and working on my personal brand. And I’ve decided that I’m not a travel blogger. I’m not a travel agent by any means.

But I am a marketer and I just like to travel. Right? So I think I’m going to lean a lot more into the expertise, the experience that I had in marketing, building brands, doing that kind of work. I just have to really figure out who’s the audience that I want to serve and is going to be that I will be happy doing it.

Right? So it’s not, I’m just doing this for the money. So I think that that’s the part that It’s kind of hard to get to that point I think people start working and then eventually they land on something like I know Doug you probably didn’t start out like right Knowing exactly where you would be today.

So I think I’m just gonna start somewhere but definitely You know, even just having these podcast interviews, kind of talking, putting myself out there has been really helpful because I’ve been terrified of doing this kind of stuff. And, but yeah, but I’m really just going to lean in on my, my marketing and branding experience and see how I can make the most out of that.

Doug: I think it’s a good pivot. I think probably. I don’t remember, but you can keep me honest here. Probably after our first interview, I told you, Hey, you should really think about having a personal brand or do something that is independent of Google or other revenue sources. And you could confirm or deny it.

Denise: Probably. I mean, it’s been a while, but probably it’s sounds, it sounds about right.

Doug: And it does. I mean, it provides like some insulation from the. Algorithm updates from, you know, maybe Amazon changes or commission rates again, and it kind of de risks you so that you have multiple traffic sources and multiple revenue streams that are independent of each other.

One of the flaws, which I think is very apparent now, I would talk to people who. Would have maybe like 10 sites. Right. And maybe they even had like a nice revenue spread between their 10 sites. And they’re like, Oh yeah, I’m diversified. And I’m like, No, you have the same traffic sources and the same revenue sources for all of them.

So it’s not really it’s diversified from like a individual perspective. Yeah, right. And you may be able to get by but every now and then. Something more devastating happens, a bigger change, and that’s where it’s like, oh, if the commission rates change or the ad rates go down one year because the economy is a little worse, then it impacts everything and you have nowhere else to turn.

So, so I like, I like the pivot and I think, I think a lot of people are discouraged, especially if they’ve been putting time in for a few years. onto a specific site or few sites or maybe even a specific business model, right? So you said at the very beginning that you don’t have Everything figured out, which, which makes sense, right?

No one does, but you have a bit of a plan as far as pivoting, do you know, sort of like the next steps or whatever, maybe in the next quarter, what are your goals? How are you viewing that? Where you have the sites that are, you know, the two sites that are still earning a pretty decent chunk of money. You are.

Contracting with your old company and you want to work on something a little bit new, not exactly from scratch because you have a huge amount of experience from your corporate job, but then you spent probably the last two and a half years learning SEO content, niche sites. So you have this other area of talent as well as well.

So next. Two quarters. What does it look like for you?

Denise: Well, quarter one, I’m really focusing on, you know, kind of deciding what is my audience. So I’ve, I’ve been able to narrow down a little bit, but I’m not quite quite there yet. And remember, like I do marketing and branding for, for a living, right?

So that’s my, my day job. So I actually enlisted a friend of mine who does branding to help me kind of walk through that because I just can’t do that for myself. As I learned, I’ve been going back and forth and so we’re going to sit down and, and kind of, she’s going to ask me the hard questions that I probably haven’t been asking myself.

And. Once I have that figured out, I already have some ideas of offers things, you know, how I’m going to do service, right? Because it is the easiest way for me to do things is to get consulting clients and that will immediately take care of the, I don’t need to go back and get a job problem that I will have If I don’t, you know, say if my current, you know, my current client, they decided they don’t need me anymore.

Then I have a really big problem. So going back into that world of consulting is definitely where I’m going to end up because I could make 10, 15, 000 a month easily doing that so that takes care of one problem. But the ultimate goal would be to leverage my knowledge and expertise to start to build something that I can then create, you know, maybe a podcast one day, but perhaps leverage email, leverage digital products, leverage other things.

To scale what I know without really trading my time for money. But, you know, if the goal is not to go back and get a job you know, and I gotta get a couple of consulting clients, that will be that will be the, the goal,

Doug: there’d be a possibility of working for whatever three or four months a year.

Where like you have a couple clients, I know you have to stagger it right, but I know a few people even back in the day where they would work whatever four month contract and then just like travel the rest of the year because of like geo arbitrage or whatever. So do you, do you have that sort of capability?

Denise: Funny, you should, should say that Doug, because that’s actually part of what I’ve been thinking about. There’s a lot of you know, the way that marketing agencies and I don’t want to build an agency. No, that’s not for me either. But the, the way that agencies kind of work is like they stretch out projects for long periods of time, right?

So there’s deliverables and then you got feedback back and forth and it just takes forever. So one of the things that I’m trying to do is streamline those processes and see would I be able to deliver something that would normally take six months in maybe four weeks or something that would take four weeks in like three days, right?

Can I, can I reach the same results by doing that? Because, you know, people will pay for, for speed, right? So if I can do that with certain things, and I know there is a few examples already that I found of people that are doing similar things in different areas, right? So how do I adapt that to my skill?

To what I can do and how I can bring results. But yeah, but that would be, that would be the ideal scenario because there’s also. You know, when you’re working on a sole project and you have that, you know, it’s great. Everybody talks about retainer, regular, you know, recurring revenue and whatnot, but then you’re stuck, like you can’t really leave because you’re always working.

So, yeah, I. Definitely would love to be able, if my ideas kind of pan out, then it would be, I would be able to deliver really great results in a much condensed period. And then I could have clients coming in. And then I said, I really don’t want to start another project right now. Kind of take off, do my thing pick it up later.

Doug: It seems ideal. Because if you have the time off, especially if you could do like eight months of the year, you’re either traveling and not working or like minimally working on the things that you want to work on for your project. Then it solves so many problems because I’m sure that there’s some aspect of doing those higher level, like contracts with the client where, you know, you’re doing the old stuff.

That where you would solve big problems, they pay you a lot of money. There’s a huge amount of value, but you don’t want to, like you said, be on retainer so they can call you at any time, all the time and just keep piling work on. So there’s something cool about working hard for like two to four months a year.

And then the rest of the year, like it’s pretty casual, you know. You can do a lot of work or do a little bit or whatever you want to do, but it, it gives you all that freedom, which is really cool.

Denise: And I think the difficult part is finding that thing that is like, I’m really good at this and I also enjoy doing it.

And for me, it’s, it’s rebranding companies. I love companies that are going through transition periods and then coming in there and. Like changing all of it. But you know, it’s very specific. And how do you do that? How do you turn that to a process that you can replicate and all of it? So this is, this is what I’ve been thinking about for the past couple of months.

So I don’t really know how this is going to end up, but that’s where I’m kind of heading towards.

Doug: I’ll pitch an idea for you that you could run, you run with us and tell me how it works out, but either a. A podcaster, YouTube, or both where you talk about the full process of rebranding. And basically that will be the top end funnel for your clients.

And they will trust you very much because you’ve told them what to do, but they need someone that’s a pro that has done it before that could help guide them. And then they would hire you. So you’re providing a huge amount of value. It’s stuff you already know. You probably can like write the outline in one weekend and then Just give that content out for free.

Sure. Someone could do it on their own, but you want the people that want the, whatever the 48 hour turnaround for some piece of it, or a whole rebranding in one month and you’ll walk them through and there’s templates and it guides them through the whole process. And then you can interview like your friends and peers that do the same thing on a specifically challenging pro project or something like that.

And that could just be. Like your content, that’s the whole top end funnel for everything that you’re potentially going to be able to sell.

Denise: Yeah. And the cool thing about that is you can like building the brand, right? Like, like LinkedIn is really big for that stuff. I mean, I started posting things on LinkedIn just to test.

The market and see what kind of content resonates with people. And I already got like two DMs. One was somebody offering me a job, kind of asking if I’d be interested. And another one was just asking more information about a topic that they saw that they found interesting. So it’s like, you see that even with very little, like this idea of putting content out there, the challenging part for, for me in doing what you’re saying, because that’s kind of like the clear way to do this, right?

The challenging part for me is doing the videos, being out there. Like I’m getting more comfortable with it, but it’s still very very challenging, but it’s, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got to start doing it and that’s the only way to get better at it.

Doug: Yeah. So you, you’re doing great. You’ve been on the show a handful of times and.

Yeah, you keep it moving. Like some people can’t tell good stories, but yeah, you answer the questions. You don’t ramble on too much. You’re doing great.

And then to layer it on like another layer on top of it, you can speak at conferences. So if you’re nervous to talk to your webcam, like that’s even scarier, but like you could totally do that too. And if you have a podcast, if you have a YouTube channel. Basically, all you have to do is like pitch the conference and they will probably let you speak and you can tell stories that people told you, right?

They don’t even have to be like your personal projects that you’ve worked on. It’s like, I had this person on my show and they did this and here’s how they solved it. So you don’t even have to have the firsthand material. You just have to have like the. The ability to take that story and then like tell people on stage or whatever.

And that’ll get you even more leads. Right. So then at that point you could charge like a much higher level, have very few clients, but they want to work with you specifically because of all the trust they’ve built with you.

Denise: Have you done keynote speeches?

Doug: Technically not. I don’t think you would call it that.

I’ve, I’ve been on some panels that were sort of main stage ish. And then a couple talks at kind of small financial independence retreat. So maybe I think in those cases. It’s been maybe 70 to 100 people or so, max. So technically, yeah. But I’ve been invited a couple times, but I’ve had to turn those downs because it’s been like across the world.

And right now we, we have a dog and I try not to travel too much for too long, but I got an invite to do The Estonia SEO conference, Kyle Rufso shout out to Kyle, but I had to decline this time around, but I was like, I really want to go there. So keep inviting me in the future, but like, I can’t do it this, this year.

So anyway, well, we have to start wrapping up. And a couple of quick things. I would love to get an update in a few months from you. So hopefully we can get an update here, how the sites are doing and how your pivot is working out. And we’ll kind of wrap it up with anything else you want to share. And then if you want anyone to follow you anywhere, which it’s okay if you don’t, but maybe we could just put a teaser out where like people should pay attention in the future.

So anything else that. We should cover that. We didn’t talk about yet.

Denise: I think we covered it all. I would love to do an update and hopefully in a few months, I’ll have a lot more to share. I mean, my profiles are public, right? So if you want to look me up, I’m not very popular or anything on social media, cause I’ve do that for clients, but not for me, but you can look me up.

My LinkedIn is Denise B Cruz. So, you know, LinkedIn, whatever slash. It’s in, right? LinkedIn slash in slash Denise B. Cruz. I’m on Twitter now too. It’s the same handle, but you know, just starting out kind of playing around with content. Feel free to follow me there, but there’s there’s not much, but I should start posting probably about more of like this, this journey that I’m completely pivoting now.

In the next few months, for sure.

Doug: Awesome. Always good to catch up and people look out for the update in a few months.