Transcript: Pivoting after selling niche sites for $50k – DS580

 

 

Doug: Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to the Doug Show. My name’s Doug Cunnington, and there’s a blast from the past. We have my buddy Dave Fox on here, and Dave was one of the first people that I coached online back in 2015 or so. Yeah, and we worked together over the years in, you know, different capacity. And then, you know, some was coaching early on.

You’ve been on the show a few times and you were one of mm-hmm. Featured success stories for years. And we will start, um, not exactly where we left off, but you were mentioning that you sold a few sites in 2021, and basically we’re gonna talk through this whole interview about what you’ve been up to for the last few years.

So first, Dave, how are you?

Dave: I’m okay. Yeah, I’m, I’m pretty good. Things are okay. Good, good, good. Yeah.

Doug: So what is new in your life? If you just, uh, before we get into all the business stuff, if you just, any big highlights or anything you wanna share something you’re into, you’re playing new music, uh, it’s wide.

Whatever you wanna talk about for Yeah. A minute or two.

Dave: Well, okay, well, back when I was like doing pretty well with this stuff and I was making like five KA month off the, the niche sites and I was dumping a lot of it into music. Like, I was making albums with the, with the money half, well, you know, wasn’t investing in, you know.

Stalks, I was like making music. And, uh, it was really fun. Like, it was kind of like, it was, it was super fun to just like have the ability to like record and like have it get mixed properly and put stuff out. But I guess the irony is that when you put all this stuff out and if you don’t like market that stuff, it just kind of sits there and like a few people hear it.

And I had my, like, I was making, uh, you know, five bucks a month off of streaming, which actually is like thousands of streams. And I was like, yay. But, uh, but then that kind of like the distro that I was on this, uh, sound drop, they were, they were just, they became like a pirate ship, like a, a ghost ship.

Pretty much of non-communication. And so things started to happen and I’d have to like fiddle with things and then they basically like. I, I started reading the Trustpilot reviews of Sound Drop and people were like, Hey, you know, like there’s nobody getting back to me at all and I can’t do anything and I can’t take this down, or I can’t put this up, I can’t do anything.

And I was like, yeah, that’s what it seems like. There just seems like there’s no, nobody there. So eventually I took my stuff off, I did like a take down and then I sort of sat on it for a while, but this is after I like, um, you know, got out of the niche thing.

So I, I sold, sold my stuff in 2021. I had like five sites and I just, one by one kind of sold them off.

Um mm-hmm. And, uh, mainly it was to the same, the same buyer except for there was basically two buyers total. And, uh, the one guy, um, yeah, he was just like really excited and he wanted to buy all the, these sites and I don’t know why he was so excited. I was trying to be real with him and just be like, you know, like, you’d have to handle this a certain way.

’cause we’re in a, a period of like, uh, uncertainty. And, but my, my stuff wasn’t tanking fully, but it was like, it was kind of keywords were getting like removed from, like they were, you know, Google wasn’t, uh, letting me have the big juicy keywords. Like one by one I would take away like best this or, you know, reviews for that.

And I was like, this is not gonna be good because, you know, mostly sites are, they have a dominant cluster of keywords that they depend on for their income and uh, they were getting plucked away one by one. And so I sort of told this guy, I’m just like, you know, you’d have to make sure you do this and this.

Like, this is what I would do. And then he was just like, he just completely ignored me and did like a bunch of crazy stuff that, you know, by crazy, I just mean too many ads. Like ads, uh, Mediavine ads up to 10. And he had his own Mediavine account too, which was like interesting ’cause I’m, you know, I couldn’t give him my Mediavine account.

But, uh, he had his own Mediavine account somehow, and then he just like used the ugliest theme that he could possibly could to, to put the sight. So it’s like rainbow, you know, like script at the top. And I’m like, this isn’t good. And so I tried to talk to him and say, you know, I don’t know why, why would you go about it this way?

But he just was like, Hey, I’m having fun here, man. Like, just like, let me do my thing. And I’m like, yeah, I’m not trying to boss you around or anything. I just was mentioning that. So

Doug: trying to help out. Yeah. Well, I’ll, I’ll jump in here. So, um, so you sold some sites in 2021, you got some cash from it. Um, can you give us a little bit of an idea what the revenue was total for the sites around that time?

Dave: Yeah, it was like, I’d say I, I got like 50 K off of all the sites. Okay. So it’s more, there’s one for like. 25 and then like 15 and then like five and then like three or something like that. And then whatever producing

Doug: music. Got to, yeah. You know, that’s your passion. You’ve been a lifelong musician, right?

Yeah. So that’s cool. Yeah.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Doug: All.

And then since then, you’ve been dabbling in a few different things, and in the pre-interview, uh, discussion, you sent me a list of about five things, which we’re gonna go over. I’ll mention ’em here. So we’re gonna talk a little bit about AI and what you’ve done with it.

Computer repair business, which, uh, many of us in this sort of like, uh, somewhat technical website area, some of us have built our own computers and like mm-hmm. People always need help with computers. Whether it’s like, hey, the hard drive died or they need to upgrade memory or something like that. Um, you also dabbled with Red Bubble, which I have as well.

And there’s some Google ad, uh, stuff, the different ad things that you can do, which we’ll talk about. And finally, something that I have actually talked about in the last, uh, several episodes, I can’t remember when, but I think someone was asking me like, ah. If you were starting over, like, what would you work on?

And I mm-hmm. Said not anything online, I would actually do some landscaping or something in the real world. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of people need a lot of stuff done and you Yeah. Can start earning money immediately. So you’ve ac you’ve actually been doing some landscaping stuff, so we will hit all of that.

Yeah. Nice. We’ll probably go in order just to keep it, uh, straight.

Dave: Concise. Yeah.

Doug: So ai, so what, what have you been doing with ai?

Dave: Well, I have a couple of clients, um, where I, I basically do their content and their SEO and yeah, I’m not making anything crazy like apps or what, whatever, nothing. Like, I’m using AI basically to create content because like I was sort of mentioning that if Google, you know, trusts you as a, as a business and then it trusts your voice per se, whatever it like knows that you’re.

It, you have reviews, it sees your, you have a Google business account or you know, profile the box, you know, and you’re in there with your reviews, and then you have a website and all that stuff. Then when you make content, it, you know, actually takes you seriously, as opposed to if you just have no, you know, there’s no credible business behind it.

Like, it’s very, like, particular with the business thing now where you can actually get your business. I think like Verif, like super double verified by Google. There’s like, you know, the Google business thing has its own verification, which is a bit different than it used to be. And then there’s some other Google business thing that I haven’t tried yet, but it’s, it’s like a, another verified business, uh, platform for Google.

I forget what it’s called. But um, yeah, so in doing that basically with these clients, um. I can, I can use AI to, basically, I talk to AI just like you’re having a conversation and then you, you get into some nichey topics and then you kind of like drill down as like, you just, you basically produce content that is unique to that niche and, you know, and then it’s, it’s okay.

Like actually it’s very, it’s kind of funny because chat GPT will refer you to, will refer like a search person searching to your content, which was made with chat GPT. So it doesn’t seem to care if chat GPT made it as long as it fits into the, the, like, the premise of what the business is.

Doug: Okay. And these are like local SEO clients that you have?

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They’re lo they’re in different niches and they’re like, it’s, and then they’re significant. Like it’s, it’s not necessarily uh, YMYL, but it’s, it’s, these are, you know, people in, involved in banking and stuff like that.

Doug: Okay. Gotcha. So you’ll, you’re in charge of their website essentially. So you do some content, you do some building, you set up, um, different profiles where it’s relevant for their business, like Google or if it’s a travel site, like Trip Advisor or whatever, like, I’m just making up that example.

Yeah. Is that the general idea? You kind of take care of everything that needs to be done for them?

Dave: Yeah. Like you would do whatever’s like expected of, of that business. Although some of them don’t wanna necessarily, you know, I’ve had like realtor people that are just like, they want to handle some of their social media.

They don’t want you to like, take over everything. They just want advice on their website and like how to create content and how to index things, stuff like that. Um, but I have helped with people’s YouTubes and stuff, so, ’cause YouTube can be powerful if people are into it, right? Um, if they, if they get into like stuff that is sort of.

Local and then, you know, has like search volume behind it and then the content is well made or it’s not just complete garbage, then they can actually get clicks from that too, because it looks, and it, it works the same way as the, the articles essentially.

Doug: How many SEO clients do you have?

Dave: Uh, I have two main ones, but I, I have, I’ve, it’s sort of spread across like a, um, some people that are, I have like spreadsheets, right?

And then in those spreadsheets there’s like people that are actively like paying me and then there’s people that have like paid me and then kind of like backed off. Like they’re like, make me a website. I do it. They wanna do SEO, then they kind of back away and they kind of like, you know, they save their money.

Then there’s people that you know, wanna do something. Like, there’s this one lawyer guy, for instance, that called me about a, about a month ago, and he was all like, we, like, I need help. I wanna do this. And like, I really, like, he gave me access to all, all his stuff. Like his like, uh, Google Business profile, his, like WordPress, all, some of his backend stuff.

And then he flaked and basically just like went mute for like, the past month. And I’m like, yo, like do you want me to do anything? I have access to all your stuff. Like, what do you want me to do? And then he just like, he’s just casually in the background, like just not answering me. So there’s a few people like that too.

And I don’t really like, you know, there’s not much I can do with them. Those people. Mm-hmm. They give me access and then they don’t even have the, the time to take the access back. Okay. So they’re like, I just have these weird access to all these businesses. I’m like, didn’t you want me to do a bunch of stuff?

And then you just kind of like. Took off.

Doug: Interesting. Okay. So couple clients. Sounds like it’s roughly ad hoc and not really. May maybe two are, do you have like a monthly retainer, that kind of thing? Yeah.

Dave: Yeah. I kind of like got some retainer action with these people. Like I had to, it kind of eventually landed there because, um, you know, I, I kind of had the idea of the retainer in my head and then these people would be like, uh, some of them would be like very specific with the hours.

Like it would be me, a guy, and then the accountant being like, what did you do for these hours? And like, what did you do for this half hour? And I’m like, well, you could just gimme a retainer and kind of like, leave me alone a bit so I can just get stuff done. Because I’d have to explain to these people, like I’d spend time explaining what I’m doing and they wouldn’t have the time to listen or understand what I was doing.

I’m like, this is for you, but, and you would benefit from understanding it, but you don’t seem to have time to. Listen to what I’m saying so that you could really benefit from it because you don’t have, you’re busy doing some job or something. Right,

Doug: right. Okay.

Dave: So there’s a, a lot of different situations sort of in, in play.

Doug: Okay. And overall use AI for content. That makes sense. And then just to go back to it, it sounds like you’ll, you’ll actually like give AI information, which is, it sounds like you’re actually saying it out loud, right? It’s listening to you and recording or whatever, and then it rewrites that.

Dave: No, no, like I basically like talk, like I type stuff to it and I just say like, Hey, I, my, my style is, Hey, I wanna talk about okay, this type of, uh, mortgage.

And then it’s like, what do you wanna talk about? And I’m like, well, I was talking about wanna talk about this specific, localized version of it. And they’re like, and it’ll give me a bunch of points. I’m like, well, here’s a Reddit thread for you to chew on. And it’ll read the Reddit there thread. And then I’ll say, well, how about this?

And then, we’ll, I’ll talk to it for a while. And then it’ll say like, oh, I think I get what you want. I’m like, yeah, that’s what I want. Can you just, okay. Give it to me in a very precise way and then it will,

Doug: okay. And then the main idea here is, um, you’re not necessarily ranking and getting a ton of traffic like the old days.

These are local businesses, so it’s pretty localized. And as you’re kind of saying, as long as there’s some content that’s relevant with decent information and is accurate, even if it’s written by ai, it’s a local query, so it should be fine. Is that roughly it

Dave: kind of, I guess it’s, it’s very particular too, like.

Say the province I live in, so for instance, you know, Canada is a wider keyword, and then there’s Ontario and then there’s like the town that I live in. So it will give, if I, if I can, I want the traffic from the province because theoretically, like, uh, some of the businesses are just pro, they can, they can, um, are province wide, I guess you could say.

And um, so if I can get the Ontario sort of version of the, the keyword, then I kind of go for that. Um, but yeah, it’s very specific because if you ju if you just do your town, like across different niches, there’s like, say it’s like a, it’s like I’m trying to promote art or something, or I’m trying to promote, uh, fitness, um, you can’t have like how to do a sit up in Cambridge, you know, I can’t do stuff like that, but I can do other things that are kind of like in between that.

So it’s, you have to think about it, like who’s, what are they typing and where are they? And like what, what are the chance of you coming up for that thing? So. The keywords are less because like back in the niche days, it was like you could rank across the board for, you know, best security camera, and it would just kind of be, it’d be kind of weird because you’re beating, like you’re, you’re kind of acro across the US right?

Ranking for like best, best certain type of security camera. Um, but now it’s, it doesn’t have any reason to give you that traffic. So like you get more back then. And then when it realized that, yeah, we can’t just give it to these guys that are, you know, affiliates, then it becomes like the, the traffic is smaller because like, we’re gonna give it to a real business, but how much traffic can we give that real business?

Uh, and it, the more you make it more like affiliate style, the more it, it goes like, oh, this is just like. It’s going back into the affiliate world, you know, you can’t, I don’t do a lot of best, you know, whatever, security camera, whatever. So.

Doug: Sure. Okay.

Let’s move on to the computer repair business. Yeah. So were you doing computer repair stuff or was it just a company you were working with

Dave: with Well, no, I set it up.

Like I had a friend who was in it, well he’s in it currently, and, um, I’m like, why don’t we make a website that sort of focuses on computer stuff and make it local and try to get some clients or customers. And he was down for that and, but he wasn’t as website, you know, savvy as me. So I made the website, I sort of set it up to be about, uh, the stuff that was ranking immediately was computer repair because again, it was a need that people had.

And a lot of the computer repair sites around here are kind of, you know, old, outdated, uh, it was just open like Google was. There was room for one more. So I, I made the site, it started ranking, he started getting calls. We, you know, made the Google business profile. It worked like a charm, basically, like right away he was just getting random people calling him to do jobs.

Um, but it was more for him, like I was not like the repair guy, but he was the repair guy. Mm-hmm. And so I was more just like the guy in charge of the website and some of the technical aspects. Um, and I wanted to kind of get more into it, like he wanted to do it stuff, but that was on another level, so like computer repair and it are not the same per se.

Right. So the more we tried to be like, yeah, we’ll set up your network, it was like, ah, Google didn’t care about that as much, but was, we’ll fix your, uh, monitor was like, you know, it didn’t mind because again, it was like a less, less risky, I guess for Google to be like, you know, to, to give him jobs that were less money.

Sort of similar to the landscaping thing where. If someone wants their weeds pulled out or their lawn mow or anything, like, uh, it will give you that traffic before it’s gonna give you like, uh, hardscaping for instance. Sure.

Doug: Okay. Interesting. So this sounds like a pretty like, fruitful business and you live in a city that’s big enough to have like basically a bunch of broken computers all the time, so people always need repairs.

It’s not seasonal, people always need this stuff done, right? Yeah. So yeah, how did this play out? Or is it like still active? Was the guy like, I wanna do more it like bigger projects versus like installing memory or cleaning someone’s, um, like defragging their hard drive or other stuff like that. So, yeah.

How did it all play out?

Dave: Um, well, it didn’t play out the way I thought it would play out in that, the computer business or like, I was trying to, it actually there, there was a bit of a weird arc to it because, um, at some point we decided to like, add some drop shipping elements, like sell some stuff, like, and uh, first it was let’s try computers because we’re a computer repair business and then couldn’t find any good sources for computers that were willing to just like, you know, let us, anything really legit.

Like obviously we could have sold just whatever, but we want, I wanted something like a little more legit and then that didn’t really pan out. So then I, at some point we landed on like crypto miners, um, which are like somehow adjacent to computers, I guess. ’cause it involves computers, but, and it’s, it’s not crypto, it’s the, the box that does the mining and there’s a whole bunch of them, right.

So we kind of got into that and then we got into the fact that. Um, it, it was, it was a bit of a rollercoaster because we were trying to source them. We talked to a bunch of like nefarious people that, that weren’t actually legit. And then we tried to buy some, and then they, they like screwed us. Uh, not surpris, not too surprisingly, but, uh, and, um, yeah, so that, that kinda was disheartening because, um, that was kind of on us though, because we wanted to, you know, believe that this, we had a good deal, but it was not a good deal, very bad deal.

And then, um, but overall, actually, that could have worked in that, except for the fact that people really wanted us to have them. They thought we were like a shop that sold them because there isn’t really a representation around here for people that have these boxes. And so people would call us and say, do you actually have this box?

And we’re like, no, but we can get it. And they’re like, uh, I don’t like that. And they wouldn’t buy it from us. Um, but we had all the contacts from, for the people that. Did have them. We actually were kind of like spent a lot, a lot of time talking to those people. So ultimately, uh, the computer of business kind of went down in flames because when it came back to like my friend just doing repairs, he kind of got annoyed by it.

’cause he wanted a better job. He wanted a better, like, it, he wanted just a normal IT job. And then, uh, the people just kept calling him to do like menial jobs and he was happy to do them for a while. And then eventually he’s like, I just wanna do like a normal job. Like I don’t want to just run around, do fixing computers, ’cause none of them, none of these jobs pay that much.

And I’m like, well I’ll take over the the business then, because like, I think I could do something with it. And then what happened was Google Business Profile, the uh, basically wouldn’t let us transfer it. To me it was like Google Business profiles are kind of notorious for just. Uh, suspending you or just like if you try to tweak one, tweak something, it will, it will just put you on hold for indefinite amount of time.

So you try to change the title or you change the address and it just goes into like high, it just freezes. And then, and then that’s what happened. It just froze and then I basically forcibly put it somewhere else and then I was like, well, I’m not gonna fix the computers right now. So I just like, basically canned it.

Doug: Super interesting. Yeah. And like, this actually comes back to the, in real life, like doing business and mm-hmm. Um, yeah, there’s a lot of like things we could do. In the real world locally because like mm-hmm. People don’t wanna do ’em ’cause they kind of suck and that’s why they call it work and everything.

Not, I’m not calling you out or your friend or anything. It’s like, it’s like he’s, he did these kind of computer repairs and it’s like, ah, it’s not a glamorous job. Although I will, I’ll contribute to the world a business idea, which I think should probably work. Mm-hmm. And maybe I’ll do like a whole separate show on, on this little idea.

So a few years ago I was visiting my aunt who lives in the villages in Florida. And if people were not familiar, the villages, it’s a, it’s a city of, I think it’s like a hundred thousand people, but it’s like small communities, retirement communities. So it’s 55 plus typically other people can live there.

But generally it’s like 55 plus tons of retired people. It’s um, there’s a wide range of like super premium. There’s like middle class and just like normal folks that live there, so it’s not like super upscale and it was made to be affordable back in the day. Mm-hmm. But the, the picture I’m painting is like of the whatever, a hundred thousand people that live there, like 90,000 are 55.

I’m just making up the stats, but like, there’s a lot of old people there. Okay? Mm-hmm. There’s a lot of old people there and they have trouble with computers all the time. Hell, I have trouble with the computer. You get a new thing, you gotta have a, I was just chatting with someone. They got a new, uh, headphone or they something they had to reinstall windows.

I use a Mac, so like you plug it in and things work. But anyway, this person was like, I gotta put a new driver on here. And I think there’s a business for like a white glove premium concierge service where you can get a retainer from retired folks. And I’m just making it up, but maybe you get paid like 150 bucks a month and basically imagine like, um, the old people’s kids are like, I don’t want to keep getting phone calls for tech support for my parents, and I will gladly pay this other company to just show up whenever they have an issue.

So the idea is like, um, it like computer support for old people in a retirement community. You’re paid a retainer and it’s a high level of service, but you also get paid a premium price. So mm-hmm. I think that’s a good business idea for someone who wants to run with it. Like, if I did it, I wouldn’t be the one like fucking going around and fixing things.

Like I would’ve a team of people did it. It’s like the Geek Squad, except, yeah, it’s for old people in a retirement community. What do you think of this business idea? I actually have some very specific thoughts on this because when we, when we started doing the, the computer website, I was cold calling retirement homes for that kind of reason.

Dave: I was like, I think people could use the assistance and Totally, we made, we made some pages that were like, uh, you know, computer assistants for seniors and stuff along those lines. But again, it’s like one of those things where it wasn’t the most popular. Like I couldn’t get that keyword to like pop off, I guess, because, you know, no one was, I don’t know if the audience.

Who would be searching it per se. Like they weren’t coming to me. That was, that page didn’t really, like, there’s a couple pages maybe that and some blog posts that didn’t really pop off too well for that. But I think that’s why I was calling them to try to get their attention and be like, Hey, I had to do this thing.

But that gets into the whole, uh, rhythm of like cold calling and stuff. ’cause I was maybe not the best at getting through to who I needed to get through to about that. And then one other thing I’ll throw in, which is when you do, when you run Google ads on tech support, you can’t, it doesn’t let you, there’s a, there’s a sub, uh, there’s a sub, uh, what do you call it?

You know, there’s some rule about, um, using the word tech support in Google ads that you’re not allowed to do that. So I was trying to run ads to that kind of thing and it wouldn’t let me, it was like stopping the ads because, got it. Because of the fact that it was said something about, oh, we don’t want them to think that you’re, uh, like these other companies and therefore you can’t do it.

And I’m like, oh. It was kind of wet blanketing my, my vibe on that, even though I thought for sure that there would be like some kind of audience, I just wasn’t good enough at the, like I wasn’t persistent enough to make that work, but I agree that it would be a good thing to try. Let’s workshop it a little bit.

Doug: So, and I get like that the things that you mentioned are exactly what I would’ve thought of because we came from the same like niche site keyword. Mm-hmm. We were like, oh, how, who’s searching for this? And I’m, you know, I’m thinking this is a networking activity, so I’m like, go to Chamber of Commerce stuff, like meet other entrepreneurs, like not cold calling, but maybe you do a free presentation.

About tech support at Yeah. Various, um, retirement homes or whatever. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. We’re doing this free stuff. Like, we’ll come and come with a whatever, uh, air compressor, dust cleaner, and you’re like, we’ll clean your keyboards, and we’ll kind of polish things up and does, if anybody needs a charger, like, uh, we have extra chargers.

Mm-hmm. And you’re just like, basically helpful. So it’s similar, you know, if you, if we’re thinking about, if we’re thinking about the sort of online world, like YouTube where I’m like, oh, I wanna teach you some stuff for free, and maybe when you have an issue, um, you’ll come to me because I helped you out.

So in this way I’m doing a free tech presentation and like, Hey, by the way, if anyone here, so imagine a retirement home. And I’m like, okay, we’re doing some stuff. I’ll tell you some things. And then, by the way, if you find yourself calling your kids or your grandkids for tech support. I offer a service if you want to mention it to them, to let them know that this is available and then the, the people are like, Hey, if you want me to stop calling, right.

The old folks are like, if you want me to stop calling and asking how I, um, close Facebook or log in or whatever question mm-hmm. And asking, then they can tell their kids. So. Mm-hmm.

I’m almost certain the business does exist out there, but the thing is probably, yeah, it’s an aging population.

Um, sure, yeah. Technology’s getting more confusing, so I’m sure there’s a route. It’s probably just like boots on the ground. You gotta figure out like what works where and all that stuff. So anyway, we talked through a business idea. Someone can run with this. I think there’s, it’s a multimillion dollar idea.

I bet. Um, yeah.

Dave: My town, I was like. 30 old folks homes, and I even went to some of them. Uh, but yeah, it definitely relates to how good you are at, you know, face-to-face or just like on the phone. And I’ve done like a lot of cold calling in the past year to try to get, you know, some stuff to happen and I’ve gotten better at it, but there is a certain point where I’m, I don’t know if it’s my greatest strength per se.

So you need, yeah, someone’s gotta be hyped about it to be like, I’m gonna go out there, I’m gonna do, do this part of it, and, you know, I’ll just, they, they wanna do it. I kind of do things like that reluctantly sometimes, and then it kind of, it doesn’t work out as planned. Like, there’s just things where I’ll go to this, uh, you know, there’s like a retire, uh, what do you call it?

A senior center that I went to, and then I’ll get like lost in the weeds of like, they’ll say, what do you want? I’m like, well, who’s the manager that I would talk to and if I want to have like a computer related class or something? And they, oh, they’re, they’re not here. They can’t talk to you this week.

They’ll be back in like a. What do you want again? I’m like, and then I just start to go, uh, and then I just, I never make it back. I get the second time, I get it. You know, there’s thing, things like that happen and then, you know, I try and then, um, it’s not like I’m easily discouraged, but I, I have, I get somewhat discouraged depending on like how many times I have to deal with someone that doesn’t know what I’m talking about.

I’m like, I’m like, no, I’m trying to tell you that this is what the idea is. And they’re like, uh, oh, she’s not here. I don’t, I don’t know. Like, they just don’t, they don’t care, you know? Yeah. And then I’m like, and I’m like, no, seriously, like you guys could use this. And then, so you have to have a very specific temperament for that, I guess.

Doug: A hundred percent.

Dave: Which is not the temperament that I have per se.

Doug: The next thing on the list is Redbubble. So Redbubble is one of those print on demand situations, and they have a lot of different products, and that’s generally what they do, right? It’s a marketplace, but you can get your stuff printed there and ship to people, right?

Dave: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what did you do with it? Uh, I did, I had like five or seven have like a, this is like its own plot, whatever with Redbubble where I got on there. I made a few different stores. Um, I had one store that was just basically, you know how on Redbubble, it’s, there’s a lot of, um, copyright infringement.

Doug: I’ve seen some stuff like that where, what people will make like Seinfeld shirts or something like that, right? Yeah. It’s like you can’t, you can’t do that.

Dave: But you can because well, you, you until they stop you. But, uh, you know, one of my best selling shirts for a while was like an Andy Griffith shirt. You know, it was like a, I had like a a, I was just picking like obscure.

’cause they only come after you if, if it’s like really someone out there if protecting the copyright. And so if you do like, uh, Andy Griffith for instance, maybe there’s nobody out there protecting it. But at a certain point, I, I like actually was doing okay. It was making like a few hundred bucks a month off of Redbubble.

And I had this whole sort of system set up where I’d had like an Urkel red bubble. I had like a Punky Brewster red bubble. Uh, I had this one just of random shows. And then at some point they struck me down because, uh, they were, they caught on to what I was doing. They found, like, they were like, this guy’s PayPal, he’s, he looked them all

Doug: together.

It’s like the same old story, right? He knew, they knew doing all this.

Dave: Yeah. And it was like, I wasn’t really hardcore breaking those, but I guess, um, not anymore than anyone else was on Redbubble. Like there’s, it still goes on to this day. You can like find like an urkel head t-shirt. Um, and it wasn’t even that, it was like something triggered them.

I think it was when I tried to do like anime. Um, and then like the, the not lawsuits, the copyright infringements was like very fast and furious and then they shut it down, then they shut this one down, then they shut this one down and then they shut them all down and then I couldn’t get back on. So it lasted about two years of like good times.

Seems a couple

Doug: years, like a few hundred bucks a month.

Dave: Yeah. And it was kind of fun. Like, I like making shirts and I like, uh, I’m sort of like shit posty kind of stuff, you know? I like doing that kind of stuff. Um, and yeah, there’s like lots of possi possibilities on Redbubble, I think. And the other thing about wanna say about Redbubble is, which ties in with the whole, uh, SEO niche thing, is that, and.

I could be wrong with this, but I think I’m not, I’m correct in saying that, uh, like Redbubble, they have a, a Google merchant account. So one of the things over the years I was always trying to get is like, get my merchant account up and running with other products. And um, but Redbubble has that obviously for their whole business.

So one of the first, like when you search in the shopping tab, you find Teespring, Redbubble, all those people. And that’s because Google’s like right this way, Redbubble, you’re like one of the main T-shirt people. So I’d go that’s, you would just be piggybacking on their, on their merchant and your wacky Andy Griffith shirt would show up like right at the top, you know, because they would just vault you up there and ’cause for a while I’m like, how am I getting these clicks?

Like what, what I was trying to talk to ’em about analytics and stuff, and their analytics was shit or whatever, and I was, I was trying to say like, can I get some kind of SEO portal? And, and they were, I think it’s, it is just run by teenagers or something and just run by. You know, uh, gen Zs and, and people that don’t, they’re like, what are you talking about?

I’m like, I wanna see the traffic. I wanna see the, you know, I want like a search console in Redbubble. ’cause you could actually, there was a, a link to connect it somehow, I think at one point. And, um, but it was just, it was all kind of broken and fragmented and I couldn’t really like, observe the traffic properly.

But, um, I did notice that. Yeah, obvious they’re, they’re basically, they’re right in, in on merchant, so, you know, it was easy to get stuff to show up.

Doug: Interesting. So I’m curious, would they let, let’s say that you hand drew a Andy Griffin type looking dude, right? Yeah. So, so it’s like your own interpretation.

It’s not an image where there could be a copyright on that. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not actually him. It’s just a Andy type character. Yeah. Would that be okay? Um, because what, what I’m coming around to is like, can you use Andy Griffin in the title

Dave: Andy Griffith?

Doug: Yeah, Griffith. Yeah. You actually just fuck it.

Call it like, spell it wrong. Andy Griffin. You might other dude, right? Yeah. So, but, but yeah. Could you have Andy Griffith in the title, even if it wasn’t a copy written? ’cause you could draw someone’s face, right? ’cause it’s not exactly

Dave: face right? Yeah, it, it is very, like we’re talking about the exact thing.

It’s like, ’cause there’d be a Spider-Man. It’d be like spider guy or man spider, you know, that was big. Like, but you would see it in their, uh, there was like some kinda weird double standard. ’cause I’d go, I’d find some TV show of like, say it’s Urkel and there’d be like every ta there’d be like a hundred tags and I’m like, well how did I get mine canceled when this guy here has like 150 tags, all of Urkel and Family matters.

And. He’s still, he’s still cruising along. And so I think it, ’cause yeah, the searching works through the tags I think, or whatever ti title or tags. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah, I think if you were to hand paint Andy Griffin and then you like put it on a shirt and then you, uh, you know, it’s still gonna, it’s still gonna look at, if you have one tag, it’s gonna go, oh, okay, we got ’em.

Like, something, some AI’s gonna catch you.

Doug: Interesting. So just to specifically ask, um, so you don’t know if it was a title or the tag or the actual image that was the copyright issue or all of them?

Dave: Well, I was doing a lot of like, uh, copyright checking before I would do something. ’cause there’s like a bunch of apps that are, you know, copyright checkers and, um, I think I just got a little bit, uh, too bold.

You know, I was, ’cause when it was actually like, when I did anime stuff, it was. I was getting these messages being like, you have broken this copyright and this store is getting canceled. Whereas there was like other warnings you would maybe get or they would just take stuff down. Mm-hmm. And, uh, but once I, you know, pissed off the wrong person, you know, some, some famous anime character.

Uh, so I don’t think that’s the thing that’s sort of, I don’t know, ironic or whatever where you could, you could just this, and this changed my mindset a bit because you could just use, uh, like A-A-P-N-G of some character and or you could draw it by hand and like get the same result of as far as, you know, getting, getting slammed for, um, copyright or whatever.

It’s like, it doesn’t care if you spend like 10 hours to draw the character. It’s just, it goes tag, cancel, you know, you’re, you’re done.

Doug: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Copyright is interesting. Yeah. ’cause if someone like hand draw, like they paint, they paint someone. Who’s famous. Mm-hmm. Or not famous, but it doesn’t even matter if they’re famous or not.

It’s like, it’s the person’s face. Like, but then again, if you take a photograph, right? Yeah. Like you have a copyright of the photograph, but, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I, I don’t even know what question, or it’s just, it’s a complicated thing where I’m like, well, if you draw the likeness of someone that’s not exactly right.

Again, an Andy G type character, like Andy g t-shirt. Yeah. It’s like,

Dave: yeah.

Doug: Yeah. So I, I don’t know, but, well, I was, that’s funny.

Dave: I was gonna say, I was getting into like, uh, I had one that was all quotes, so it’d be like, Oprah said this, and then that would be fine, because it was just what they said. And then, uh, there’d be one, there was one that was, uh, what was it?

The quote one, and then I, I did one on like, it’s like Socrates, like, it’d be like Socrates’ head. ’cause you can’t get in trouble for just Socrates or Playdoh or whatever, like, right. And they’re, and I’m like, if they’re just as popular as Urkel, I don’t care if it’s Playdoh or Urkel, I just, I’ll take the sale.

Right.

Doug: Yeah. Well, I, and I had this idea, again, I’ll con, I’ll add this to the world. If somebody wants to do this with ai, it would be so easily doable. But I think it would be hilarious to have like an Instagram profile where you would have like, um, a. I don’t know, like a silly quote that, uh, Barney Fife said, uh, for people that Dunno, Barney Fife is the, uh, silly deputy that was on the Andy Griffith show.

And, uh, it’s like something stupid that Barney said, but then yeah, attribute it to Oprah. Like, that’s funny, right? So it’s like Oprah said this, and then you have Oprah space, and then it’s like a Barney quote, so I’m just making one up. But, or like, Einstein, uh, said this thing and it’s actually like something that Kermit the Frog said, like, that’s pretty funny.

And because satire, like you could kind of like, there’s a more leeway on satire, right? Yeah. But I’m pretty sure if on those platforms they would fuck you.

Dave: They would fuck you because they don’t care if you’re trying to be funny or if you’re like being like, how about this? And then they’re like, because it’s just their stupid AI or whatever.

It’s like mm-hmm. Doing, doing this shit.

Doug: Yeah. So if you’re not a a trademark copyright lawyer, you may not wanna try the things that I’m describing, although I think on social media, because it’s so poorly policed if you’re not. Mm-hmm. Like if you’re putting it on a social media platform, like you’re probably okay.

And then the other thing is yeah, if you’re not on a platform like Redbubble and you’re producing your own shirts mm-hmm. Or your own materials or whatever. Yeah. And you probably, you probably could create like coffee mugs that have like a Oprah likeness face with Kermit quotes or whatever combo. Um, but the whole point with the idea is like, it’s pretty funny when you’re like, you hear this quote and you’re like, yeah, Gandhi said this o other thing.

Yeah. Which obviously Gandhi didn’t say something that, uh, you know, again, if you’re,

Dave: if you know that, that, like, if you’re smart enough to know like what Gandhi said or what he didn’t say, you know, you’d be like, did he say that? I don’t know. Like people are kind of stupid. Right? So, but. I did make a, an actual store, like aside from Redbubble, once they kicked me off, I was kind of like pissed.

So I made my own t-shirt website. ’cause I’m like, I’ll just do this with WooCommerce, right? And then I did that, but then it wouldn’t give me the merchant because it’s just like, it, it was just toying with me. It wouldn’t let me, it would just disapprove this, or I’m like, I can, I, like, I’ll deal with the Barney Fife people on my own, you know, like, I don’t need to like have red bubbles, AI, because, you know, I guess if you’re, the more popular you get, the more you’re gonna attract the people that wanna sue you.

And I’ve had people come at me with like, stuff on websites to say that they’re gonna sue me like in the past and no one ever sued me. But, um, you know, there’s, there’s things that have happened where I would use like a picture of a guy with a mustache and then some his, like, agent from like h uh, Hollywood would call me and like, you gotta take that down.

I’m like. Who are you? And he is like, I’m the guy’s agent. I’m what, what guy? Like, just some guy, the mustache that I uses. And then, yeah, that happened like in the beginning when I was just grabbing pictures from wherever and Yeah.

Doug: Yeah. I think I remember early I was like, yeah, you can’t do that, man. Like, you gotta, but now there’s like ai, uh, images, so it’s like, yeah.

It doesn’t even, things have changed. It doesn’t matter as much. Yeah. Everyone’s copyright is being infringed upon a little bit. Okay. Somewhat. Anything else for, uh, well, you know what, now when, or now you know what you know about Redbubble and the copyright infringement, it does sound like there’s some viable route, so why not?

Uh, you’re probably banned for life from there. Uh, but if you were giving advice to someone who has not violated copyrights multiple times on Redbubble, uh, what advice would you give them? Is there a viable thing?

Dave: You don’t, you just don’t have to break copyright. You can do stuff that like. Doesn’t break copyright and probably does just as well as stuff that would break copyright.

Like, I just kind of wanted to break copyright. I just wanted to like, I’m like, for some reason I wanted Barney Fife on my store, which I didn’t have to like, obviously do. But, um, I, yeah, there’s other stuff, like the one, the most popular, I, I would do like a, a sort by most popular ever, like on Redbubble.

And there was this one picture, which you may have seen, which is like, Jesus, like peeking around a corner going like, I saw that. And it’s, and it’s not very, like, it’s not very high caliber, it’s just like some garbage image, like a, like a meme. But it was like top image of all of Redbubble for like, the entire time I was on there.

And so quality isn’t like, isn’t really the, the driving factor. Like there’s just, you know, you can just use text, I guess. Like I, I, I think part of it was I, I, I looked at a few too many stores that had these, like, um, have you seen those shirts you probably have that are like, uh, my dad kicks ass and he’ll kick your dad’s ass.

It’s like this long spiel. And it’s like, and then it’s just like, my aunt is the best aunt in the entire world and just goes on and on. And I’m like, and it looked very like, can, like someone had to be good at Canva to make this thing. And I’m like, do I wanna do that? Like I, I was thinking about doing stuff like that where it was just like, you know, my dad is better than your dad with a bunch of, like, he’s strong and he’s tough and he is handsome and blah, blah, blah.

And there’s like different fonts and stuff. And I was like, ah, I don’t really like Canva that much, but you know, I didn’t get drawn into that. But there’s stuff like that that I think does like incredibly well if you like doing that kind of stuff, you know? Right. I couldn’t do it.

Doug: I know.

Um, there’s someone that I’ve interviewed a couple times, um, and she has stores set up just a couple, just two on Etsy and it’s giftable stuff, so it’s similar to that.

She does, as far as I understand, it’s like. No clothing or very little clothing. ’cause you could have like different sizes and returns is, or they’re a little bit more difficult to deal with. Mm-hmm. And then, um, she just has text pretty much simple. Mm-hmm. She goes after a specific niche, so like parents, like father, uh, mother like quotes or whatever and whatever.

Fill in all different family members, right? Yeah. Like best sister, best brother-in-law, and just like, iterate on that. And she has like a few thousand products and likes working in Canva. So I think there’s certainly a route, the, the thing that I’m aware of, right?

Like you mentioned, oh, you sorted some of the bestselling stuff and then you saw something that was really popular.

The fact is like a lot of them are not very defensible because someone could just like see what’s selling, well, recreate that, kind of dilute the market a little bit and yeah. You know, if you’re not a first mover, then you may have a little bit of a hard time. Like, I mean, it could work still, but it’s just like the barrier to entry is very low.

Any thoughts on that?

Dave: I just, I was sort of thinking that if I could get a bunch of low hanging fruit, like just like sell a thousand t-shirts, one, like one per like one individual. So times a thousand, then I’m like, that’s fine. I don’t care if I make $5 times a thousand with different things that work or whatever.

Um, yeah, I did try a lot of stuff. Like I’m pretty much, uh, I did a lot of different experiments, right? Like I would do, I’m like politics. Hmm. And I would do, like, I would do stuff like I, I hate Trump, and I’m like, and I’m like, oh, that didn’t work. Or I like Trump. And I’d be like, I hate Biden. I like Biden, I hate I Trump versus Biden.

Like, I would just have different political like stuff where I’m like that, that if, because you would just, if you search for anybody like. Um, you know, that’s in politics or something, right? You could, you could go on Redbubble and find like the people that don’t like them, the people that do like them, and depending on which one you, you know, like if your marketing brain like me, it’s like, I don’t care if, you know, I don’t really care which one sells if, if one of them does sell, but then, you know, it’d be kind of weird to have a political store that’s like, has both views represented on it, you know?

Doug: I don’t know. Unless it likes it. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave: Like, if it likes it, I don’t care. But people would be, if they actually did look, but I, I think people mainly don’t look at the store. They just, they find the shirt or whatever and they buy it. They don’t go what is on the store. And then there’s, you know, opposing views on the store.

They’d be like, huh, what’s going on here? You’re like,

Doug: yeah. Okay. Interesting. Okay, let’s, um, we’ll skip ahead. ’cause sometimes, right, you gotta pay the bills and you gotta earn some money. Mm-hmm.

And that’s one of the big advantages of like doing some physical actual service in your community. You get paid right away, you probably get paid, um, potentially in advance.

You have word of mouth, um, that could go on and you can just get clients by doing a good job, showing up on time and communicating well. Mm-hmm. So you’ve been doing some landscaping stuff and I expect, you know, like I said, sometimes we gotta pay the bills. So was that, was that it? It’s like, ah, you sold some sites, some of the money ran out, and you’re like, all right, I can work on my own time, run my own business.

Yeah. And it’s summertime. Grass is long.

Dave: Yeah. Basically like, I, like, I like, I’ve been doing gardening stuff for like 10 years basically. And, um, yeah, so I’m, I’m like. I’m good at that type of work. Like, uh, but again, it’s, there is a spectrum of, you know, you’re like the lowest paid person to the more, the more specialized the job is, the more you could get for it.

But, um, I tried to, like, I’ve, I’ve worked to get, get my like hourly to be like, say 30 bucks. Mm-hmm. Um, and that, that is where I’ve established it and, you know, it’s, it’s fine. It just, I guess the thing that sort of sucks about it is, um, I’m not into the, the really, uh, good stuff yet where I’m like, I’m gonna do a $5,000 job or whatever.

It’s more just like, you come, you might kind of change their whole, like, uh, the look of their whole property, but it’s still like, here’s 200, here’s a hundred, here’s another 200. And like, you, you cap out at some point where it’s, it’s like you’re still kind of in a laboring kind of position, whereas you’re not going like, I’m gonna, you know, do something.

Really crazy, like cut down a huge tree or I did like la the other day. I cut down a, like a medium sized tree by myself and it was, uh, it was kind of trickier than I thought because I realized that like half it was hanging in the neighbor’s yard. It was hanging off of a wi an electrical wire. Um, and I’m like there with the saw I just like went like, oh shit.

Like this is, this could be bad. And I did get it down and I didn’t break the fence ’cause it was growing through this fence. And uh, so there’s a bunch of shit like that. And then I, I trimmed a hedge maze the other day and uh, it was like doing like a three hour squat where you have to like get down and like, on this like hedge maze.

And I made the hedge maze actually. So like Really? That’s cool. Yeah, like 10 years ago me and my dad made this hedge maze at this lady’s house and I was there trimming it again and she was like saying. Well, it needs to be trimmed for the seat, like for right now. But like, I do wanna rip it out because it’s like, part parts of it are dead.

And I’m like, okay, I’ll, I’ll trim it. So it took me like, you know, four hours to trim that thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it didn’t, so there’s parts of it where I’m like, it’s just you feel like you’re just sort of doing labor, which is fine, but, um, it depends what you get paid. It depends on the job, you know.

Doug: How do you, um, pri like that hedge maze, um, trimming, do you give a flat price based on what you think your hourly rate should be?

Or you’re like, Hey, I’m gonna charge you x number per hour, so how do you price out a project?

Dave: In that case? It’s like an hourly, like we’ve established an hourly, so she knows that I’m gonna be there like every week for like, say four hours. And it’s like I get paid X for it. Um, she would probably get me to do more, but I’m like, some of these, uh, customers have.

Different like jobs that are maybe less appealing somehow. Yeah, yeah. They’re like, can you pluck out dandelions for two hours? I’m like, uh, fine. No,

Doug: no, that, that totally makes sense. And, and like, ’cause I did a lot of landscape work. Um, I guess I started when I was like 12 and probably wrapped up mostly by the time I was like 18 to 20.

Maybe I did like one or two when I was around. Um, yeah. Largely like got, got rid of those clients and Yeah. Yeah, exactly what you’re saying. It started with like cutting grass washing cars, and then people were like, can you blow leaves? And, mm-hmm. Fuck. I was like, whatever. 14 years old. Yeah. So I’m like, sure.

And I mean, I didn’t realize it, but like you get chops on like negotiating and like pricing out a thing and I’m like, yeah, I’ll charge you. I try to estimate how long it might take me. Mm-hmm. But I would always do, um, basically like per project. So I would, I’ll charge you. Or 90% of the time it was like that I guess.

But I would be like, I’ll charge you, um, I’ll charge you $50 for that. And sometimes I’m like, I’m not really sure how long or sometimes they were looking out for me. I’m sure maybe I said 50 bucks and they’re like, Hey, you know what, let me know how long it takes you and like if it takes you longer than you think.

’cause it’s like they weren’t trying to screw me over. They were just like hiring somebody in the neighborhood. I was already cutting their grass and they didn’t want to like pay me 50 bucks and be like, I got one over on this kid. It took him like, you know, so much longer.

Dave: Yeah.

Doug: Interesting. So you price it out, um, depending on who it is, it might be an hourly.

Do you do project based sometimes? Like if it’s not an established, um, relationship, like you mentioned?

Dave: Yeah, I prefer if it’s by the project, if I can help it, but. Like, if I’m gonna be there regularly, I just kind of, you know, like some people I’ll, I’ll like mow their lawn for like 60 bucks or something like that and do like some trimming.

Uh, I actually like those ones where it’s just like super easy to go in, do it. There’s no problems at all. Like, you know, there’s other jobs that are way more problematic that just like, uh, take longer and are like more taxing on your body. And then, you know, they, they’ll cheap out on you try to like pay you like, you know, your hourly just drops down to like basically minimum wage the longer that you’re fucking around with their shit.

Yeah. Like I could tell some stories, but fuck yeah. Yeah. Like this. I’ll give you one just for fun, but there’s one, it’s like a student house in this university area. It’s like basically the nexus of like king and university in Waterloo. And, and there’s like tons of students, tons of people, you know, there’s like.

People coming from the gym, there’s like crazy homeless people and there’s this yard and there’s like an old house surrounded by like skyscrapers now. They put in like a lot of high rises and this I’ve, you know, it’s like a student housing kind of evicted looking house. And this guy’s like, can you mow my lawn in the back?

I’m like, or just mow the lawn in general. I’m like, okay, because I like help a sister out. So like, I was like, I’ll, I’ll go and take a look at it. And he was gonna pay me like, you know, 50 bucks. I’m like, lemme just look at it. Lemme just go and look at it. And when I got there it was like, uh, there was like these eight foot, uh, burdock plants.

It was like a forest and murdock’s, like, you know, burrs. Uh, those was like things that stick to your shirt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like basically eight footer, like, just like. It was like going into a jungle and I’m, I’m like, this is gonna take me like six hours. And he was gonna pay me like 50 bucks. I’m like, this is gonna be like 200 bucks, buddy.

Like, you can’t get me to do this for, there’s no fucking way. And then I just like went in my lawnmower just like, I have this mulcher. I just was like, I didn’t have any other tools with me. So I just was like, I either go home or I just like, dive into this thing and try to like, like slash these things down.

And I basically just, it was like a, it was like Vietnam, you know? I was just in there. Just try. And there could have been anything in there that could, once you’re in there, you couldn’t, people couldn’t see you. Um, and people had their like stolen shit in there and there’s like, uh, you know, I kept running over like linen and like styrofoam and bottles and, you know, it was just hazardous.

Doug: Did, did. Um, so you told him, Hey, it’s not gonna be 50 bucks, it’ll be more. And he was like, yeah.

Dave: I’m like, are you kidding me? I can’t do this for 50 bucks. Like, that’s insane.

Doug: Was he like, okay, like, I know.

Dave: He was in India and he was like, he, I, he actually called me from India. Like, I’m like, where are you at?

And he is like, I’m in India. I’m like, oh, well I’m here. And it’s, it’s like very un, like, it’s very unruly. I don’t know like how you want me to handle this? And he’s like, oh, look at that. Oh. Like he kinda, I showed him and then he was like, oh, okay. I guess I’ll pay you more for that. I’m like, there’s no way I can clear this out.

It’s like a huge lot with. And they’re like, you can’t even get them out. They’re just, they’re like trees, but you can run them over with a lawnmower.

Doug: I thought this story was gonna be like, yeah, and you trash your mower. The engine was shot, like the blade was ruined. Like you got a sharp

Dave: up. Right. It basically, well, the, the blade got like, there was like this, uh, someone apparently was like a seamstress ’cause there’s different colored, like wool and linen.

And so at one point the more wouldn’t go, and I looked and there was just like a noose of like rainbow linen around the blade that I had to like scissor off for like half an hour. And I’m like, what the fuck? Like, what is going on? There’s just so many weird things in that yard. Yeah. But luckily it was nothing that, like a needle didn’t like flap and hit me.

You know? There’s like, um, but yeah, one time a guy like stashed his like stolen bike under a bush and it was like a brand new bike, like stuffed under a bush. And I’m like, and then the neighbor guy came over and he was like, oh, can you do mine too? I’m like, is this your bike? And he’s like. No, but can you do all my trees and all this stuff?

So I did the that guy’s stuff and then he wanted to underpay me too. So.

Doug: Interesting. Yeah. And I think like, it’s been a lot of years since I, I did that kinda work, but there’s always, um, yeah, there’s always a market for it. ’cause like people don’t have time and it’s hard work. Yeah. And people don’t wanna do it.

And just like you said, I’d be doing some work and someone would come over like, Hey, can you do my lawn too? ’cause they’re like, oh, maybe I can get it done like right now.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Doug: And again, knowing what I know now, I would probably like charge more if I was uncertain. I’m like, it starts at this amount and then it might be more depending on how long, and I’ll stop when we get to that point.

Mm-hmm. And let you know if you want me to finish it. Mm-hmm. Because like, it’s so hard to hire people now per what I understand, especially for a. Hard work wear. You gotta wear gloves, you got heavy equipment. Yeah. You gotta buy gas for your mower or whatever. Like people, people don’t really wanna do that kind of work, so I’m sure you could charge so much more.

And that that’s one thing. So you say, um, you know, you think your hourly rates like 30 bucks an hour. Like, have you, like, how certain are you of that market price versus like, hey, inflation, like groceries are more expensive and you’re like, I’m gonna have to raise it up and, you know, now it’s more like 40 bucks an hour.

Like, let me know, like, is are you on the edge of where you can raise your rates or is 30 a pretty true amount? Uh,

Dave: I’d say like, for me it’s, it’s right on the, on the nose. ’cause like mm-hmm. There’s a couple people that I do that are like, um, they’ll pay me. There’s a couple people near, near here, there where, where I do like a, a combo and they give me like 160 and it takes me like two hours to do it.

So it’s like 80 bucks an hour for that. So it’s like, that’s actually great. But again, these are like individual people that I see every two weeks. So it’s, it’s, but then there’s people that are, they have more money and they want to pay less or they like, um, yeah, they’re just, there’s, there’s different situations where they just, they, they don’t wanna pay as much.

And then I have to now I just, if they don’t wanna do 30 an hour, I just don’t do it. Like, I’ll be like, if I’m gonna do this lawn, which is gonna take me an hour, I want 30. Um, at the very least. And then some people like, oh, I wanna give you 20, or they’ll make up excuses or whatever. And, um, yeah. But 30 is like a solid like number, I think.

Like I wouldn’t, I don’t think I would do it for less than 30 now because. Of the things that have happened. Um, but yeah, like, and then if it’s usually these jobs, if it’s like a lawn mowing or sort trimming type of job, I like to get it done in like an hour if possible. But, um, there’s always a different circumstances where like, I went, there’s, I’ve had about 15 people and then, uh, the one, this is just another anecdote, but, uh, the one family has like, uh, they’re on a sort of by a swamp and they have a bunch of snakes in their yard all the time.

And so they’re like, they watch out for the snakes. I have to like gingerly steer around the snakes. There’s like a snake family and frogs and like big giant frogs. And, and, and then I was out there like finishing off and this other lady who lives like two houses down was like, can you come to my house and do like my mom’s yard?

I’m like, sure. So I like, instead of saying no, I was like, sure. So I was there like an hour later. And then her yard is like a lawn that she like for some reason dumped gravel across her whole backyard. So it’s like lawn plus gravel. And I’m like, and toys and garbage. And I’m like, what kinda lawn is this?

Like why is there gravel in the lawn? You know, like, the fuck are you thinking? But I’m just like, oh yeah, I’ll do it. And I travels shooting everywhere and I’m like, this is fucking crazy. But I still like these people, but I’m just like, I don’t get, I don’t get this their whatever philosophy of how they wanna set up their yard.

Doug: Yeah. So it’s always, I was gonna say things ever change, it sounds exactly the same where it’s just like, what are you doing? And then some people are super into it. I remember a dude I worked for who was, man, he was 80. Like, yeah. Early eighties, something like that. Yeah. He loved working in the yard, but he was so old and he had like some heart issues.

Mm-hmm. So he wasn’t able to do like the hard work that he used to. Yeah. So I, he would pay me by the hour and I would, you know, cut his grass and do other stuff like that. So he was organized ’cause he liked to do yard stuff, but then other people were just like, yeah, it was a total mess. Like, what are you even doing backwards?

Insane. So, alright, let’s, we gotta wrap it up here. So, yeah. Yeah. You are currently, uh, doing that. It sounds like the majority of your income, you’re still learning a little bit on the side, you’re dabbling. But one thing with, um, lawn Care Pro and a con, it is a seasonal business and you’re in Canada, so the growing season is a little bit shorter.

Mm-hmm. Uh, so what do you do like during the off season? Do you just chill out, like people still need a little bit done, maybe they, you kind of shovel their snow or like, what do you do?

Dave: I haven’t fully like, adapted for this snow situation because that’s just like the, that’s like the flip side of the lawn care essentially.

But I had my eye on this trailer that I would need to get to, like put my snow snowplow on it and then, you know, talk to people, which I still might do before the season’s. Like, ’cause there’s not much time here. Like by September, you basically wanna be like thinking about that. But, um, I had like more, I’m always kinda on the edge.

Like I had more SEO clients maybe last year, and then they, some of them like bailed for kind of crazy reasons or whatever. Like, um, and so I, it’s, it’s hard to find like a good, sane client that doesn’t wanna just like, you know, ha just, just ditch you or whatever. Um, yeah, so I’m, I’m, look, I’m looking for more of those clients and I also still wanna sell stuff because I don’t want to depend on just clients that.

You know, might not need me. Right. At a certain point, even if I’m like doing them a huge favor by, like, they’re like tripling their traffic, which I’ve done recently to certain people, but I think some people, they don’t really get, uh, they just don’t get it at all. Like they’re just, they’re not focused on it to the point where, like, say there’s like one realtor that she, um, she wanted to have like the, the MLS put on her website and it’s expensive, you know, MLS, it’s like the mm-hmm.

The, the, the, uh, listings. And, you know, you can’t just have listings on your site without going through the MLS, which is like get an official, you know, permission to do that. Then your site can be just like a, it looks more like a big realtor site, you know, it has all the listings from everywhere and uh, you have to use it like you have to put it to use, um, right.

But if you don’t, and you don’t have time and you’re just on Pinterest like. Dicking around on Pinterest and you don’t log into anything or look at anything, uh, like, and that person I’m thinking of is like a exceptionally nice person, but as far as me going, like, I would do entire neighborhoods and make these pages and be like, okay, here’s 40 neighborhoods that are in this city.

Um, and yeah, you gotta pay me for this or whatever. And, and also you should look at this because like, what is it? Like, do you sell any in this neighborhood? And then they wouldn’t look, they wouldn’t talk about it, they wouldn’t discuss it. And then they’d be like, oh, I like, I’d rather just be on Facebook.

I’m like, well, you’re supposed to look at this neighborhood because like, apparently you sell stuff in this neighborhood, so why don’t you just tell, you know, tell me if you, what you think about that. And they just would be like, ah, I gotta go. And then, um, stuff like that would happen.

Doug: Okay. So you’ll potentially do some snow stuff, potentially, like you wanna sell, like you were saying, like kind of your own products, like not Red Bubble Exactly.

But you wanna have like your own. Stuff that you’re, uh, generating revenue so you don’t have to rely on clients. ’cause you don’t have, I mean, you really don’t have like a pipeline of clients that that’s the struggle with like an agency or a service. Yeah. Like you have to do the work, but you also have to like have new clients coming in.

’cause there’s always churn and that’s, yeah. It’s a hard business model because you always have to like generate new business. You have to deliver and then you always have people turning off, so you always gotta have a pipeline coming your way. Yeah. Which is difficult. I’ve

Dave: been, I’ve done a lot of, like, this past year is like most cold calling I’ve ever done.

And you know, it, it can be like, you get encouraged by people that seem interested or they’ll, they’ll, they basically agree and then they kind of flake out or they, they say, talk to me in two months. Or a lot of people just don’t answer the phone. But, you know, it’s like, it’s typical I guess cold calling.

So I don’t think that I’m too bad at the cold calling. I just think that. Um, and I have gotten people from doing that. So it is like the, the conversion rate on cold calling is, it, is what it is. So I have to keep, keep it up. And I’m not always in the mood to like do like a barrage of cold calls, you know, that I need to do.

No

Doug: one wants to hear like it’s a cold call. Nobody, I mean, I’m not saying you like, do people do your, uh, business development as you need to, but Yeah. Yeah. Cold calls, yeah. Suck. Like if someone calls me, yeah. If I know them, I’m like, why did you call me? So you could imagine, yeah. If I don’t know them, I’m like, yeah, no way.

And it’s not even

Dave: just that, but like a lot of people just have a reception and if you call, say you’re like, I’m gonna do dentists today, or whatever, and you call like 50 dentists, but like half the time you get a receptionist who’s just like, I don’t understand. What do you want? And then you’re like, I need to talk to the decision maker.

And then they, they’re like, oh, he’s, I, I don’t know, you can’t talk to him. And then you’re like, well, and then you try to like, think of a way to get to the decision maker and you say, oh, can I get his email? Like, is he around later? And then they’re like, what do you want? And I’m like, yeah, it’s marketing.

Get a filling, gimme a filling. And then I will get a filling, which yeah, I did get a filling, then they fucked it up. But, um, yeah, no, I like, I like these certain niches with the reception. It’s like hard to get around the reception. They don’t respond to email. There’s the deliverability factor of the email.

You have to be like on, you know, on top of everything to the point where. You know, you just, you just keep, keep doing it and eventually something will happen. But I really do would rather just control my own, like, uh, you know, stuff and just sell stuff and to people that really want the thing I’m selling, you know, not, not where they kind of are, you know, I like the SEO thing, but they have to really see the point of it too.

Right.

Doug: What would it be if, like, if you knew it was gonna work, what would you do?

Dave: Well, I mean, I have, say this one client that I have, it’s like he does mortgage and I basically like have gotten him traffic where like people fill out the, for him, they become a lead. We both see it, both agree that that’s a lead and then like we just, he makes money and then I make money from that.

And it’s, it’s good because he gets it. He’s savvy enough to get most of it. He just doesn’t have time to do what I’m doing. Right. So it’s like he, that, that specific situation works out pretty well. And there’s a couple other situations that work out kind of well, but um. I just think that, yeah, it’s like I have to have, it has to be the right chemistry with the, the client.

Um, and then they have to see the point of what you’re doing. Like, ’cause if, once you start explaining SEO to them and, uh, if they don’t have the, the patience for it, they just, they kind of just like zone out and they’re gone.

Doug: Well, and it’s so clear for a mortgage broker or some, someone, uh, highly transactional where they’re like, yeah, for every lead I get in, I close whatever 1%.

So it’s like mm-hmm. They can assign a clear expected value for every lead that comes in and then it’s very clear how much they can pay you. Mm-hmm. And then you obviously get paid a decent amount. ’cause a mortgage broker, they make good money on every transaction, so. Mm-hmm. Each lead that comes in is probably worth like a couple hundred bucks or a few hundred bucks.

I don’t know what means, I’m just making it up. So yeah, that’s, and you knows you get a hundred bucks. So Yeah, I would say, uh. Do that, do that, Dave. Yeah, I’m gonna keep doing it. Do more broker brokers. Shit. I’m,

Dave: yeah, I’m scaling it up.

And I think that, yeah, I, I still, but I still have like the things that I, low key or whatever, wanna do that are I, I’m doing like, it’s like you’re just multitasking.

You’re just like, I’m doing this, this, this, and, you know, there’s just so many things that, that I’m, I’m doing that. Like, I have to just manage my time and, um, you know, it’s, it gets to bit to be a bit of a cluster fuck, right? Because you’re just like, I’m doing music and I’m like, once you start being like, I’m gonna try to promote my music, it’s like this whole thing, which like is very difficult too.

And so, yeah, I have to keep my focus and like, I’m like, call my leads and like follow up and like call these people and stay organized and like have enough money to like, make it all worth it. So I think it is worth it if, but you do have to have a certain mindset for like. You can’t be too disorganized.

Doug: Yeah. Alright, final question. Unrelated to all this stuff. Okay.

What’s your, what’s your number one guitar?

Dave: My number one guitar is in like, what, what I like?

Doug: Yeah. Either what you like or your guitar where you’re like, this is my best guitar and I love it and it’s the one that I wanna play most,

Dave: um, past whatever.

Uh, I like Tellies, um, just because of the, the tone of them, I guess. Like, they’re just very like jangly. Mm-hmm. And I, yeah, there’s certain guitars that just, uh, if we’re talking about electric guitars, right? Like fenders are good. Uh, like I’m pretty much easygoing when it comes to guitars to a, to a point because I like, I like just.

Playable guitars that I, I don’t have to like, fight the guitar to stay in tune or like telly’s, like stay in tune pretty well. Yeah. Um, but I have like a lot of experience, a lot of crap guitars. Like I’ll have a fleet of like, crap guitars right now. And, you know, it’s sort of, that’s why I sort of go into the garage rock.

That’s like my kind of like thing because I just like grabbing things and using them versus just being like, so, you know, careful and precious with the, uh, instrument. And I don’t have the, like, the money to just like, geek out on, on all those instruments, you know? Which I, I, I like, I like those instruments, but I How about you?

Doug: Yeah, I, other side of the spectrum. So Les Paul’s really like Les Paul’s and the sound, and I think it’s just like the, it probably the same for you. It’s like the bands that I listen to, the guitarist, it’s like page slash um. Mm-hmm. Fill in the blank of many other Les Paul players. Not, not that I don’t appreciate, um, the tally sound or a Strat sound or something.

PRS, whatever. Yeah. Um, but yeah, most of the, because I, I act, I have like a few, um, I’ll have them in different tuning, so I play slides some, so I have one in like open G one in like, um, it’s like E-Flat and then mm-hmm. Actually, are you familiar with Eastman? Do you know Eastman?

Dave: Mm, I think I’ve heard of it.

Yeah. So it’s a Chinese

Doug: brand and they have essentially, it’s like a custom shop level, but it’s like mm-hmm. Say 25% of what like a Gibson or Fender Custom Shop would be, but it’s like mm-hmm. But it’s like really well made, set up so nicely. And like you said, don’t have to fight it, it stays in tune, which it ironically, like Les Paul’s, um, not ironically, but like.

Les Pauls or famously, like, they’ll, the g will get outta tune. I have no issues. Like one that I, I get ’em all used by the way, but like, um, I just made sure the, um, like the, the peg, uh, peg head, is that what you call it? Like basically the spring’s wrapped around enough and then there’s enough Yeah. Like, um, like graphite lubrication or whatever on the nut, and then mm-hmm.

It stays in tune. So anyway, it’s interesting ’cause like everyone has the, the, the ones that they like, but yeah, less Paul’s for me. And, um, it’s really fun. I love him.

Dave: But you, you’re, you’re more like lead. I’m like rhythm. You’re more, probably more like lead, right? Or something. You like riffs and stuff. I sure,

Doug: yeah.

I sure would like to, uh, like I’m not as, uh, accomplished of a musician as you, I’m a. Hobbyist. But, um, the one thing I have been doing, ’cause I had some, um, copyright issues with Shutterstock music, and I just kind of got sick. It Oh yeah. It was resolvable, but it’s happened a couple times and I was like, you know what?

I’m just doing this podcast as a hobby. Like, there’s not even any sponsors anymore. Like, it’s purely my own enjoyment. Mm-hmm. So I’m like, I’ll record a couple little riffs, theme songs, put myself out there, which is embarrassing. ’cause like, I’m like, I’m a bit of a hack, but like, it’s like it’s in tune and I, you know, keep it short.

Um, yeah. But I’m like, it’s my own music and a handful of people will hear it. And I’m not trying to push a song out there or anything. It’s just like little intro, little outro and uh, you know, stay outta the way. So, but you’re not

Dave: jamming out in the, in the stream or whatever. You’re just like. Book ending it with Yep.

Compositions. Yep. Nice. Yep. That’s cool. Yeah,

Doug: 10 seconds and I’m like, then it’s a hundred percent my material and I don’t have no copyright issues. So anyway.

Dave: Are there any, uh, like eps or albums coming down the pipeline?

Doug: I had an idea for an ep, um, just instrumental. I’m not a, not a singer, um, but I was like, one of my friends actually put out an album.

He, like produced it similar to what you said. So he had, he had some, um, money to invest and got like, I think like a Grammy award-winning producer or at least nominated. It could have, anyway,

Dave: some big shot.

Doug: And he’s a very good musician and has put out albums in the past, but he was like, I wanna hire studio musicians.

I wanna like work on this stuff. Anyway, so he sort of inspired me ’cause I, I have a few guitars and I’m like, it would be really cool to just like have maybe like, I’m just making it up and say like five songs per EP where I just use one guitar and one guitar, like one tuning and just like really get to know that guitar a little bit better.

Mm-hmm. And um, I’m not a hundred percent sure, like at, I think it’s a cool idea and I would want to, um, you know, spend some time on it. I would learn some like, recording chops as well, which is interesting. Yeah, I have a few mics and, you know, this setup and just like self-produce it and not too, not too much pressure, you know.

Yeah. Do you have any advice for someone who’s like, oh, maybe I wanna do ep, like five, six songs, whatever.

Dave: I mean, why not? I, I put out a lot of shit and like, you know, it’s not like it does anything, but I enjoy making it. I enjoy even putting it out, even though it doesn’t really get heard too much because I’m not ready to do the next phase of just like, you know, promoting it, per se.

I got it. There’s the thing called Hyped it that I was using, uh, because I, I do know a fair bit about the whole music thing too, but like, there is a thing where they had a kind of interesting, like, promotional thing that uses like Facebook ads, but it’s like built into their platform and yeah. You, if you wanna build up your followers and stuff, you have to like, do something, right?

You can’t, like the SEO on music is like, kind of doesn’t work the same way. It’s like kind of doesn’t work at all because you can’t just come up with a song called like Custard, custard Pie two, and then expect anything to like algorithmically, like latch onto it. It has to be like promoted. Mm-hmm. You know?

Somehow like by you and, and you have to do shows and do stuff. So it’s, it’s hard. It’s, unless you really enjoy it, it’s kind of like, it can be very frustrating to be like, you know, make stuff and then have like no algorithmic assistance and there’s just so much stuff too. But if you just enjoy it, that’s another good thing about it, I guess, is that it’s like you can put it out and it’s there.

So if, if you, if you can share it with who you think would appreciate it. Yeah, it would, I would, I would do it.

Doug: Yeah. Purely like personal enjoyment and development and then, and then I, I’d put it on my only fans, you know, would enjoy it. I’m just kidding. I don’t have any fans, but that’s maybe the next step.

People are in defeat. I don’t, I don’t give a shit. I’ll show my feet. It’s like, you’re

Dave: kidding about being kidding, right? OnlyFans like Twitch. It’s all the same. Oh, there’s a closeup again. Uh, yeah. It’s the same thing though, right? Like it’s just, isn’t it just a streaming thing? Like you can have Patreon, you know, Twitch, you can have like, whatever, and it’s just like you’re just there in some like this.

It’s just like, it’s on there. And then if the platform, you know, is like, I, my one, the one guy that’s like the one, the IT guy, he like, he streams all the time, but like his viewer count is very low. Mm-hmm. And he’s just dreaming that he can play games and just get paid like thousands of dollars, but it’s very hyper competitive out there.

And. You know, it’s just, it’s, it’s like he does it for the love of the love of the sport kind of thing, so. Yeah.

Doug: Well, yeah, we be, we better jet. Um, but two quick things. So when we finish, I’ll show you my feet so you can let me know if you think I do have, uh, only hands. Nice feet, foot. Um, I mean, I can show my face too, but I think people are down with the feet a little bit more.

And then finally, where, where should people find you if they want to follow along with you or see what you’re up to or be your SEO client?

Dave: Yeah. Uh, star scape seo.com is my website. Um, I think that’s what it is. I better double check you link up to it. Uh, and then young coconut music on, on Spotify is, is my whatever label.

Doug: Okay. Very good. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah, we’ll link up to both of those. Thanks, Dave. It’s good to catch up and Yeah, talk about music there at the end. That’s pretty fun. So appreciate it, man. I dig it.

Dave: Yeah, I dig it. All right. See y’all later.