Transcript: The Real Reason Matt Giovanisci QUIT Almost Everything | DS615

Published: May 4, 2026 0 comments

Doug: Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to the Doug Show. I’m Doug Cunnington and Matt gei is hanging out with me today in the studio. How are you

Matt: in the st dude? I’m good. How are you?

Doug: It’s awesome to have you over here. I’m doing really well. Looking forward to chatting. And this episode is going to cover your, um, like the process and the decision making of shutting down your podcast.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Doug: And your email list and a lot of the other stuff that you were doing so that generally you could focus on. Yeah. Swim University.

Matt: Yep.

Doug: Okay. And people might remember you from being on the show. It’s been a little while, but you, you know, we have a similar audience.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: So a lot of, there was, there’s a a lot of

Matt: crossover.

Yeah. Yeah.

Doug: And. So people have like a baseline.

Money Lab Origins

Doug: What was, what was your podcast? Give us a little bit of history on your podcasting. You can keep it brief. I was gonna say, how far

Matt: back do you want me to go?

Doug: Yeah. I have a lot of questions, but you can actually talk like original, your original pod and stuff like that.

Um, but keep it

Matt: tight. I’ll just, I’ll talk about money. So called Money Lab. And originally it was just me and my buddy Andrew talking about business. Then I, then he left and I continued it where I just interviewed my friends and then like friends in business, not just like friends mm-hmm. Of hanging, like just hanging out like, hey, you know, what’d you do today?

Um, and then after that it, I took a break. I actually let it go. But, uh, Justin from Transistor kept it live for me.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And I decided to start like audio journaling as you called it, you know. Uh, I was, uh, walking around in my little brewery, in my house little and talking out my business problems and I was usually deleting them and then decided, well, I could just publish these voice memos as a podcast.

And that was the new iteration of Money Lab, which ran for two years in that, in, so from 20 24, 20, 25, almost daily, like three times a week.

Rebrand to Business Casual

Matt: Then up to like five times a week I would publish, and then in early January or you know, so 2026, I kind of wanted to revamp things. I wanted to take it a little bit more seriously.

I renamed it business casual. ’cause I thought Money Lab doesn’t, I, I named it Money Lab because it was based on my blog and my blog was me doing ex experiments around business. Um, and I felt like Money Lab didn’t really fit what I was doing now. So I was like, what does fit and business casual was like a pretty obvious one when I thought of it, but I’m like, there’s gotta be other podcasts with this name.

I can’t be the only person that thought of it. I wasn’t, but no one had the full name, like everyone had like business casual comedy or business cas, the business casual podcast. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, I’m just gonna call it business casual. So that was it. And then I did that for what, three months?

And then shut it down

Doug: and then you just quit.

Matt: And then I just quit.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: And, and I was gonna say at one point, I think I linked to it in an email I sent out of like a month or two ago or something. But when I Googled, ’cause I was like, oh, I wanna make sure I put the right URL.

Matt: Oh yeah.

Doug: And then I was like, oh, there’s a shit load of podcasts that have business casual.

Yeah. In it. So it was very, I act, I had to like find it. Mm. It was not easy. Easily search. Searchable.

Matt: Yeah. Money lab too though. ’cause it’s like crypto based. Oh. So a lot of crypto stuff on with the word money lab.

Doug: Gotcha. Gotcha. Interesting. So some of the stuff we’re gonna talk about today is around what you were doing to improve the show and then a little bit of a spoiler, the show wasn’t growing right?

Matt: No.

Doug: And that played a kind of a big role in the decision making process or how big of a role?

Matt: A role the, it’s not the big role. But yes, I’ll roll.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Definitely a reason. Yeah.

Podcast as Hobby

Doug: Both of us ended up with pod ’cause I obviously still have this podcast.

Matt: Wait, what are we doing

Doug: when,

Matt: what is this?

Doug: We were at some point selling something and this served as the top part of the funnel.

Yeah. Or more relationship building and that sort of thing. I’m not selling anything anymore. I have no product. You had no product. Mm-hmm. So it’s a little, it’s kind of fuzzy at that point. It’s a hobby.

Matt: Yep.

Doug: And a hobby that costs money.

Matt: Mm-hmm. Well, all hobbies cost money, right?

Doug: Yeah. Yeah. To

Matt: some

Doug: extent they should.

Matt: Like even like crocheting, you have to buy the yarn.

Doug: Yeah. But like, even walking outside, there’s a cost of time

Matt: and sunburn.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: You know, you gotta, you gotta put on the sunscreen.

Doug: You can cover up, you can cover up.

Matt: You gotta buy hiking gear.

Doug: So when you think about it that way, then we’re like, well, how much do you like it?

Because we’re spending time on it. Yeah. So I, I can see where you ended up in, in that position.

Trying to Improve

Doug: So a couple, couple areas I wanna focus on. One, what, what stuff were you trying in? Oh

Matt: yeah.

Doug: In January? Or, or, or whatever. And this year you were like, Hey, I’m gonna try to do better on the show. Would you, what were some of the things

Matt: you, you said something, I want to just draw attention to it because, um, when you, when you call it a hobby, I’m thinking immediately, I’m like, well, yeah, I do this all day.

This is fine. This is like, this is worth my time.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Doing it by yourself is, um, less so this becomes like, well, I could be hanging out with my friends and here I am just talking to myself. And I don’t know who’s listening, you know? Right. So it feels, it’s very isolating versus this where I would say having like a studio, having people over talking about something that you’re interested in.

That’s, and that’s fun. Yeah. That’s legitimately fun. I don’t know if what I was doing was fun.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I wouldn’t call it fun. So, sorry, your question was What did I try

Doug: Oh, yeah.

Matt: And, um, to, to improve it. Mm-hmm. Or, okay. So originally what the podcast was is me walking back and forth pacing back and forth in a room similar to this size, uh, on concrete, which probably is not good for my knees as a 42-year-old.

Um, my, that’s what my dad told me, and I was talking into my phone. I was just doing voice memos and so that’s, that’s all it was. I had. Very rarely did I prepare a, a list of bullets to cover. Mostly I was solving my own problems in my own business. Sometimes somebody would email in a question and I would just answer it or give my take on it.

That was pretty much the show. And uh, the things that I did to improve it were one, I tried for a while to actually prepare before going into the podcast. I found that to be less fun ’cause I’m like, well, if there were things I needed to research, which was very rare ’cause everything was about what I was current, like some of the podcasts would be like, alright, what did I do today?

And then just go, okay, here’s my checklist of things that I did in my own business and here’s why I did them and here’s the results of those things. So those things were fairly easy, but I would talk out of order and I’m not a very linear thinker. I kind of jump around. So I feel like if you’re listening to the podcast.

You hear me jump around a lot. It’s probably annoying. I would imagine. So I found that when I prepared even a little bit, like if I came up with an episode that was like, here are the top three things I did today, and I went down the list. Even that simple, uh, it was better instead of me in, in the moment trying to think of like, what, what did I do today?

Mm-hmm. And then sometimes stalling, whatever. So just the prep was one thing. Um, everything in me, and I’ve heard, you know, you had, you had emailed in and said, dude, I know you app, I know you do audio stuff. Get a, get a better microphone. And I’m like, I, I’ve been actively not doing that because any friction that I add, like add to the process is going to make it less fun.

But in, I did, in the brewery, I had this A-T-R-U-S-B-C mike. I was like, lemme see if this works. I plugged it in. I was like, oh shit. It works. Okay, well, all right. That’s not that bad. Yeah. So I’m like, I have my phone in my hand and I plugged in a microphone and I was holding it like a standup comedian holds a microphone.

Yeah. And the audio quality for some people got worse. ’cause they said, oh, now the podcast is quieter and I have to crank you up. And I was like, yeah, yeah. ’cause I’m not doing any post-processing to it. Um, and so people were like, well, I didn’t mind the ambient noise. And it was kind of fun. You would comment on the ambient noise and now you can’t do that.

And I was like, all right, so this is a, it doesn’t matter. You know, half people like it, half people don’t like it. Uh, and I would be in your camp.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Steph, my wife was in your camp. So I’m like, well, okay, the, if my taste is there, I’m gonna do that. That wasn’t like a it. I don’t think it, it definitely didn’t, I knew, I knew that improving the audio would not make the podcast better.

Right. Like, like from a content perspective.

Quality vs Growth

Matt: And I was telling you, I’m like, you know, one of the most popular business podcasts is that Alex, her Moey podcast. And I’m like, ah, I haven’t listened to some episodes of that where I’m like, he’s in a fucking gymnasium. Mm-hmm. Or I don’t know where he is, but it’s in, it’s unlistenable to me.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Just because of the audio quality.

Doug: Yeah. And I’ll jump in here. You did. You sent me one and I was like, I kind of, I don’t pay attention to him. I watched a couple things.

Matt: Uhhuh,

Doug: he has his shtick, which I don’t enjoy.

Matt: Who he Oh

Doug: yeah. Alex. Oh,

Matt: oh

Doug: yeah. So I’m like, eh, well

Matt: I sent you a, I was like, didn’t I send you a, an episode?

I’m,

Doug: you was like, it’s horrible. But the problem is he had, um, it’s like. He’s too, it’s unrelatable, right? He has other mechanisms to get people to his show. So like yes, you saying, Hey, there’s a bad show. Totally. It’s a bad example.

Matt: I but, but

Doug: it’s irrelevant.

Matt: It’s irrelevant. And I also think, to me that was a case of it has nothing to do with the quality of the audio and only to do

Doug: Correct.

Matt: With the quality of the content,

Doug: or, I’m sorry?

Matt: Or, or, or yeah.

Doug: You’re talking about growth. So the growth

Matt: is

Doug: different

Matt: than,

Doug: or all the

Matt: other things around

Doug: quality. Uh, so Alex ha or whatever big podcasts that are growing,

Matt: I mean, even you, you can use anybody. You, Gary v just does it handheld, like not purposely shitty, but um,

Doug: it’s authentic.

It’s in the field.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: People are okay with it.

Matt: People are okay with, with poor quality. If, and I say quality ’cause there’s a

quality subjective, you know, like, yeah.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: And. I knew just from being doing this for so long that adding a nicer microphone doesn’t make the podcast grow right? Like I knew that so, and it only added friction to my recording process. In this very specific case, adding the little extra microphone that was already sitting on the table was not that bad, and if it adds a little extra, you know, polish, then why not do it?

And, but I knew that it wasn’t gonna needle move.

Doug: Yeah. There there’s not, yeah. There, like some people have said for my other show specifically, they’re like, oh, you should add more cameras. Like, you should have two camera angles. And I’m like, if the audio’s fine, no one’s really gonna give a shit. And

Matt: I can give you a million examples where they don’t do that.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah. And

Matt: it’s like, and they’re perfectly po I mean, streamers,

Doug: and I’ve seen

Matt: streamers get like tons of views.

Doug: Yeah. And I’ve seen really good setups that don’t it like Yeah. It, it won’t bring more people in. Mm-hmm. You have to do, it’s, it’s different to look at the growth activity versus like improving the quality of an existing show.

They’re like completely separate, um, streams of work.

Matt: Yeah. And, and yeah. Like there’s a show that I watch, uh, show you, I watch Hank Green on YouTube. Okay. He is like a webcam that he shoots on, you know, but he, the, the work that he puts into what he is saying. Is great, what he records with, and his microphone is like,

Doug: it’s fine.

Matt: I’m like, guy, get a nicer, you know, like,

Doug: at least get A-D-S-L-R

Matt: for Yeah. Like, what are we doing little, get a little Boca, you know?

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: That’s, that’s, that’s me. That’s the work that I, I’m interested in that and that’s the work that I think it, once you in, I don’t know, I think it’s a, it’s wishful thinking.

Mm-hmm. Because it’s, it’s one of those things that doesn’t require that much work to actually improve, you know? ’cause it’s like, oh, I have to do is buy a new microphone.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Then everything will be better. And it’s like, no, it is like years and years and years of like really, really hard work. And that’s the thing.

Uh, so those are just like little things that I mm-hmm. Tried to grow it. But, and I knew that like, and I, and I think I said this in the last episode, I said, oh, if I really want it to grow this, like, if I was like, if. Serious. I would be doing nothing that I’m doing right now. I would be doing everything different.

I would, it would be on YouTube. ’cause my, I wouldn’t, every, I would record, you know, in pajamas, BA only, I guess I’m kind of in, he doesn’t have pants on, pants on or anything. If that’s,

Doug: he just rolled

Matt: up like that. I didn’t, I thought there was gonna be an open table, but you put a curtain there, a curtain, a curtain on the table, a tablecloth as they call it.

So, yeah, I, I, I, I, I was like, I know, I know for a fact that if I put all of my energy into something, I could make it very good. I know I can. And that includes not just the quality of the product, you know, like the, the polish of it, but the, the substance also, like what’s inside, you know, not just the, or I should say not just the packaging, but the substance.

Um, but that requires. An ungodly amount of work for, for a business that I didn’t want to be in and for products that I don’t have anymore. So it’s like, so then at what point does it become, I don’t know. Does that make sense?

Doug: Yeah, yeah.

Workload and Rewards

Doug: No, I mean like exact same position where it’s just like, okay, why am I doing this?

Do I get something out of it? And you hit on it, I mean mm-hmm. I’ve done, I’ve been trying to find the path of content that I wanna cover. I did more solo shows. ’cause it’s easier.

Matt: Yeah, it’s easier. Yeah.

Doug: And then I interviewed a handful of people and I was like, oh yeah, it was fun to interview people and like make connections and all that kind of stuff.

And then I texted you yesterday, I was like, Hey, do you wanna record? Yeah. You were like, yeah, you come over tomorrow. Yeah. So it’s just

Matt: like, this

Doug: is fun.

Matt: And I’m, I’m literally like five minutes down the road. Yeah. But I, um. But the, it does take work and coordination to make that happen. Yeah. And that’s just one day, right?

So like you have to constantly do that. There has to be a system and then you start, you know, all of the things that you do to make something great, create, you create systems, the workload piles up. And for me, I’m like, but then what’s the reward? Cannot just be, I got a show out and it was fun while we recorded it, but then like, you know, you might spend hours on like thumbnail design and you know, cleaning up the audio and, and editing and like, there’s all these other pieces that go into it.

And so I feel like there needs to be some external reward system that is not just, well that was fun.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I don’t know. You know what I mean?

Doug: So interesting.

Matt: Something

Doug: Well, it, I was gonna say, this is part, some notes that I was looking at and some other stuff that I was reading not too long ago, and I think about it all the time.

Just like the internal, um, intrinsic drive versus external validation and that sort of thing. Mm-hmm.

Chasing Views and Validation

Doug: We’re talking before we started recording on YouTube. This show is now just getting dozens, like under 100 views. And that’s wild. And it used to, I mean, the channels had ups and downs and other stuff, and there’s the algorithm you have to think about.

Mm-hmm.

Matt: But

Doug: I told you, I was like, fuck the algorithm. Yeah. And I’m like, I have to do this for an internal, and I’m not saying anyone’s, uh, internal, external, um, system of measure or success is valid or invalid. I’m just like, I have to have an internal drive and not give a shit about the views, even though people can see that.

Matt: Y Yeah. But you have to be willing in that case. Like, alright, if that were to happen to me, right?

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: I know that I’d have to be willing to adapt.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I’d have to be willing to change my process and that sucks. Yeah. Because I don’t want to change my process.

Doug: Change your process because you want to get more views.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Because, because the, that’s what you’re chasing is the ex, and I’m saying this in terms of like, there’s a phrase that my dad says a lot, and I say it a lot. Um, I’m trying not to say it as much, but I say, for who? For what? So I’m like, what? So like, sometimes I go like, what the fuck? Why am I doing this?

You know what I mean? Like, who’s this for? And if it’s for you, like truly it’s for you. You know? And that’s how I, that’s how I approach my podcast. I’m like, uh, you know, like, yeah, people enjoy it. But the reason I’m doing it is because I’m getting my steps in and I’m getting mental clarity in my own business.

Right. And I, and I kept telling myself, I don’t care if anybody listens. You know? Okay. That’s what I told myself. And it, and it was true for a, a while until I had another motivation, which was like, yeah, I know, but I just want some scoreboard. I want the number to go up.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I think I just need that as a person.

Yeah. And it’s the reason why I can’t start anything without thinking of it in terms of a business. Like,

Doug: oh, that’s horrible, man.

Matt: You know,

Doug: that’s, you’ll have to shed that.

Matt: So I, yeah, it’s like when I did, when I started brewing, immediately thought about how to turn it into a business and not brewing, like not starting a brewery, but starting a channel around brewing or starting a brand around it or doing something.

Um, you know, any, anytime we talked earlier about guitars, it’s like any, the reason I play guitar is for something else. It’s for, it’s never just to like, enjoy the process. It’s, it’s literally for some sort of external validation. Um, I, that may be something I have to go to a therapist for to figure out, like, I, I’m not, I’m not saying that it’s not healthy or unhealthy or it’s like, oh, that’s how everybody thinks, but

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. I like it. Well, that, the thing is, is like if I’m really just doing it for myself, then why wouldn’t I just do leisure? Like, why don’t we just go buy a boat? You know what I mean? Something that’s like intrinsically, everyone agrees. This is like, there’s no way to make money at this. Like, you know what I mean?

You can’t turn this into a business even if you tried.

Doug: Yeah, yeah,

Matt: yeah. It’s like, yeah. Go, go, go out in the boat with some beers. Like, relax. Yeah. You know, otherwise, like. Yeah. Every hobby that I have, I mean, I do, you know, I have a home brewing hobby, which I mean, I, you know, I’m not gonna do that any, I’m not going to make content around it.

’cause I’m like, well wait a minute. This thing that I’m doing is the hobby.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: So to add another thing on top of it stops me from doing the thing. ’cause it’s like, well I don’t, I can’t just go out in my garage and brew a beer. I have to film it also, and then I have to edit it and then I have to write music for it.

And then it’s like, and all of those things can be fun. You know, they’re all have elements of fun. But then I go, well, but then I’m, then it’s hard. It just, it, I’m adding friction to this thing that should be relaxing. So, back to what you were saying about like, growing this show, it’s like right now, this is a relaxing, fun way to do it.

If I start chasing the algorithm, then it becomes this job. Yes, you grow. But at what cost? Or or for who, for what? Like what’s the point

Doug: right.

Matt: Of doing this? Like our, so, ’cause if we’re gonna chase the algorithm, this thing better make, I mean, I don’t know. This thing better make money. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like, well then we need sponsors and then we need this.

And then it’s like, well, now I just have a job.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah. You created a job.

Matt: Created a job.

Doug: The, um, what’s interesting, well, like I said, there’s a lot of parallels, but I’m like,

Matt: well, I feel like you’re in a different position.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Maybe, maybe. And you tell me. ’cause I feel like I have the job and I keep trying to run away from it in a way where it’s like, I, I have a job where I got, where I have the YouTube plaque, right?

And I have a blog and I have like, I do all the same things,

Doug: right?

Matt: So here I am trying to like also do it as a hobby. And it’s like, but you already like, yeah. Whereas I feel like this is your whole thing. This is it. So, so you could, right. It’s not, you’re, I

Doug: could what?

Matt: You could chase the algorithm, I mean Oh, right.

Because you’re not running away, you’re not like, well, I have this other business that’s like crushing right now, and so this would be like my extra little hobby thing. And it’s like, yeah, you could make it a job if you wanted to. Right. And it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t be that, I mean, it, it wouldn’t be that bad for you.

Mm-hmm. Right. Like, you’re not taking away from something else to do that.

Doug: Correct. Yeah. What he’s saying is, I don’t work that I don’t work anymore.

Matt: This is your job.

Doug: Yeah, but I mean,

Matt: it’s, but you treat it as a hobby.

Doug: Yeah, but it’s not really, I was gonna say the, the revenue used to be significant, but it is not anymore.

So it’s barely covered.

Matt: But it could be,

Doug: um, potentially if I wanted to. If

Matt: you wanted to. Right.

Doug: And here’s, here’s one thing. I think both similar. So like I have chased the algorithm before and I have sold things. Mm-hmm. And I, I’m like, I’ve proved to myself that I could, I’ve done it before in a couple different areas.

Yeah. I probably got lucky in a few different ways with timing and other things. I don’t think it’s all my, it’s like not all merit based. There’s Sure. Plenty of luck. Um, and you have too, so, mm-hmm. I wonder why you feel like you needed to have it for business casual. Why?

Matt: I needed to have what?

Doug: Yeah. Why you needed to have the views and growth.

Oh. Because you know, you can do it. You’re doing it elsewhere, but why do you need it everywhere?

Matt: I don’t know.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: I took my, I think I have to go to a therapist.

Doug: Figure that out. Yeah,

Matt: it’s um. I, I think, okay. I do know this about myself, which is I do need the, I do need the pat on the back. I need a good job. Boy, you did a good, you did good. Okay. Um, as some sort of metric for like, Hey, did anyone see what I did?

But it, I don’t think it can come from one person, you know? Like it can’t come from dad, you know, it has to come from a, it has to come from everyone all at once. It’s like, it’s like a attention, you know, like, yeah.

Doug: Interesting. Okay. Hmm. And I wonder, yeah, obviously it gets back to our,

Matt: maybe, I don’t know. I could be misdiagnosed.

You’ll

Doug: have to go to a therapist, like you said, to get it all.

Matt: That’s, that’s the thing is, I, I, the, the thing is, is I’m walking away from this, but I have, I still, I have it in spades, you know, it’s like,

Doug: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: You know, so it’s like I get, I put up a YouTube video on Swim University, and I’m like, yeah, look at all the people watching me.

This is great.

Doug: Right? Yeah,

Matt: yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And,

Doug: and the thing is like.

Matt: I don’t think that, by the way,

Doug: she could have been like, wow.

Why Quit Abruptly

Doug: She, you made, um, you made a few, um, well, the, your final episode. Yeah. ’cause you, you kind of had a farewell. You sent an email out. Mm-hmm. And it was, I felt like it was a little abrupt.

’cause I knew in previous episode it

Matt: definitely was abrupt. Yes.

Doug: And you were like, yep, I’m gonna, I’m gonna turn off the show, I’m gonna delete it. Mm-hmm. I’m gonna delete the email list, which I think you had just re-activated in the last quarter or whatever.

Matt: Yeah. And I paid for a full year.

Doug: And you Okay.

Matt: Can’t get

Doug: that money back. You did? Yeah. You did all the, oh, and you even had a paid version of Uhhuh you were sending it from, uh, market. Okay. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Um, so overall you had kind of a lot of stuff in place.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Doug: And I was like, this is crazy. And then you published an episode where you talked about focus and, and I mean, I wanted to talk about this ’cause you.

Had a lot of momentum. And you like podcasting. Yes. And you had a few reasons why you were doing this, this being the business casual podcast in the email list, and then you abruptly stopped.

Matt: Yes.

Doug: How did you end up making the decision?

Focus 10 and Swim University

Matt: Um, it had a lot to do with Swim University. We’re heading into season, um, for pool season, and I just got it in my, like, so in business casual in that world, in that new iteration of the podcast, there had been nine episodes that I titled Focus. And each time I did an episode titled Focus, it was me telling myself, all right, whatever, whatever shiny object you’re chasing or thinking about chasing.

Come back, come back to come back to the path. But every single time I’ve recorded those, I’d always say, well, this podcast that I’m doing doesn’t count. You know, so it was fitting that I had done nine of them. And then the last episode I was like, oh, I’m gonna call it Focus 10 because it’s the episode where I actually delete the, the thing that is taking my attention away.

Now, is it really, ’cause people, you know, would say like, is it really taking your attention away? It sounds like if you go through your archives that it has helped you in your business for two years. And that is true. Um, it doesn’t mean I’m not going to continue to do that activity. I’m still recording, uh, episodes and then just deleting them like I was before.

Um, but I don’t, there’s no pressure now to do it three days a week. Or to pay the money to have it up or to just sit there. And, and like every single time I would go to upload episodes, I’d look at the analytics and go like, yeah, still the same number of people. Still it not, nowhere not growing at all.

This episode didn’t resonate. Okay. You know, some people would email me and they would, and, and you know, the most emails I got obviously were from the last episode, right? ’cause it’s, and they were like, wow, the, the irony that this last episode hit the hardest for everyone. And I’m like, no, it’s because I’m doing something that we, that you all think you should do.

So it’s like, I’m quitting the thing that doesn’t make money to focus on the thing that does. And if we’re talking about business, it is, I have to kill the things that don’t work. I have to kill the darlings in order to, you know, really put really whole ass one thing. Now in terms of like, um, it, it. Does it, is it really gonna save me time?

Well, the steps thing was really interesting ’cause somebody had emailed in and said, uh, he didn’t just say, he didn’t say your, he didn’t say, your steps are bullshit. But in so many words, I read it as that, which is like, no, you’re not getting steps. You’re pacing. If you really want to get 10,000 steps and you’re really trying to be healthy, you need to be, you need to go on a brisk walk where you’re like, kind of outta breath.

And I go, alright, fine. You know, like I kind of took it as like, what the, you know, what do you know, what do you know? What are you a doctor? And then I went to a doctor and he was like, yeah, you gotta, what you’re doing is kind of bullshit. And I was like, oh, well I, I mean, I know, but nah,

Doug: it’s, well, and like I tend to.

There’s a middle ground. Yeah. It’s better than sitting,

Matt: it’s for

Doug: sure. But it’s not as good as like a pure, uh, some other exercise, fill in the blank. It could be lifting weights or whatever kind of shift.

Matt: So, so now I’m doing both. So it’s, it’s actually less time because I am getting those steps done faster because I’m moving faster.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: So what used to take me like two hours a day of podcasting, sometimes not about my own business, sometimes just to get, just to get out there and do steps. It would be about someone else’s business, which didn’t really help me. So now I’m like, oh, I go into my elliptical and I, or I’ll go outside and I’ll crush the steps in 30 minutes to an hour.

And now I’ve gained an hour back of my time that I am putting into Swim University, which I wasn’t putting into it. Mm-hmm.

Mental Load and Identity

Matt: So that’s one thing, but it’s also the mental load, which is which, this is something I thought a lot about on the show. Where it’s like just removing things from my plate mentally allowed me to do, do better work at Swim University.

So like, just a simple one, like just not having, like, I have like house projects that are just like living in my brain that I need to do, and just not having those either finished or someone else taking care of ’em. Like Yeah. Removes the mental load or just things, just owning things. You know, it’s like, I got a lot, did a lot of work on like, use what you have.

I stopped buying a lot of stuff because like every time I would buy something I’m like, oh, that’s still sitting in a box upstairs. You know, like, or that’s still, you know, I gotta, I gotta, all right, I gotta do that, blah, blah, blah. And so all that just adds mental load and it’s like, well, you know, I, I do, I, I think it’s less about the sadness of quitting and more about the excitement of growing something that I am, that I’ve been doing for 30 years.

That I have just now accepted that like, I am okay with it. So to give you, um, a specific like peek into my world, I don’t like telling people that I do business casual as a podcast. I don’t like that. I’m like, oh, what do you talk about? I talk about online business. I’m like, all right. It’s kind of like whatever.

To me, it’s a, like, I like when I subvert expectations of people. So to tell people that I am this like huge pool boy on the internet. Mm-hmm. You know, physically, and, you know, view wise, I feel like that just ma that delights me.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: They’re like, what do you do for a living? I’m like, oh, I, I’m the Internet’s pool boy.

And it’s like, that’s to me, like, oh. And then I show them and they’re like, oh, you really are? And I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wasn’t, that’s not a joke. Yeah. And I’m like, that delights me.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: But telling them I do a podcast about business feels to me like I don’t feel that good about it because I, I don’t have anything that like, and I’m not proud of that fact.

I just did it because it’s the thing I’m interested in. It’s the thing I wanna talk about. But, uh, I don’t think it’s fun to tell other people. Uh, and that’s stupid. But it does help. It does help, you know, and it also helps to be like, what do you do? And it’s like, well, I could pick three different things.

So which one do I tell this person? And I’m like, no, no, no. I tell everyone now the same thing. I’m in porn. I did that once.

Doug: It’s interesting, like you were not proud to talk about, or you don’t think it’s impressive for someone to talk about business. Um, or you don’t, you just didn’t feel like you were impressive.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Which is interesting because

Matt: like what gives you the right?

Doug: Me?

Matt: No, no, no, no. I mean like people saying that like to me.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Like what gives you like, I,

Doug: well, the

Matt: reason I understand from like a lifestyle perspective. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I, yeah. I chose this path.

Culture Shift Hustle vs Lifestyle

Matt: I also think too, you see like the culture has changed. Yeah. It has flipped. It used to be hustle culture. Yeah. And then for a while it was, I think after 2008, it was very lifestyle business like.

It’s, it’s cool to be chill, you know?

Doug: Okay. I think I was, go ahead. Now it’s not, now it’s

Matt: the other way. Now it’s like, it’s, it’s reversed, but way harder,

Doug: more hustle.

Matt: Yeah, but way more, uh, brutal.

Doug: I think we’re consuming different content. I’m in my own world.

Matt: That’s fair.

Doug: Yeah. ’cause I was gonna say that’s fair.

I think I was a couple years behind, so I

Matt: thought I’m in the man. You’re not in the manosphere. I’m, I’m just kidding. Blast it with looks, maxing and

Doug: I, yeah. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, I thought lifestyle was more in the, maybe the teens, like the 20 teens or so, but I’m, I’m a little bit out of the loop.

Matt: I’m

Doug: not paying

Matt: attention.

FIRE After 2008

Matt: I feel like after 2008 is when fire took hold. Right. Like as a movement, like it really got a lot of traction Yeah. After the downturn.

Doug: Yeah. I think, I mean around then, I mean, I think like Mr. Money Mustache Pete, he started his blog in like, like 2011, and then I think it got big and all the way up late

Matt: 2011.

Doug: Yeah. And, and then like 2018 was maybe the peak. Mm-hmm. And then it’s kind of been even right, right now. But

Finance Content Shift

Matt: so like, I don’t like, so, so what I’m seeing in the personal finance space

Doug: mm-hmm.

Matt: Right. Is frigging Caleb Hammer yelling at everybody. Right. Graham Steffan, who’s living in, in some freaking mansion in Vegas.

Right. Um, I don’t see the like, fire, like at, at the level of every, you know, it’s like the level of like, um, like the Gary V in business, I don’t see that in like. It’s everybody’s financial maxing. You know what I mean? It’s, it’s like

Doug: totally different content. The algorithms are feeding us completely. I, and I’ve blocked the couple That’s crazy.

Couple people that you’ve mentioned. I’m like, you know what? They kind of irritate me, everybody. Oh,

Matt: oh. It’s, I mean, I can’t stand it, but,

Doug: and it’s like everything has like a little negative tinge. ’cause that does well algorithmically. So I’m just

Crypto and Day Trading

Matt: like, like crypto. I’m not doing that. Crypto got huge. Yeah.

And then frigging now stock trading is like, day trading is huge. I’m like, I thought we all collectively agreed that this is a dumb idea.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: And now we’re all back to it.

Doug: Yeah. Well, I assume people were selling stuff. And I was gonna say, I remember I had some of our peers mm-hmm. That, uh, they did really well.

Maybe they had a windfall of money and like when I had that, I invested it in index funds.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: And they were like, uh, you know what? I kind of like to, I’m a stock picker. I’m pretty good at it. Pretty sure those motherfuckers are working now. I mean, like, oh, I

Matt: know. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug: I feel sure. Ba I mean, it turns out that, um.

Just don’t, they’re not smarter than,

Matt: yeah. I, you know, and, and it is an algorithm thing. ’cause I feel like the, um, like if you’re not gonna talk about extremes, then it’s really hard to gain traction in this modern, you know, look at Mr. Beast. It’s like, if you’re not willing to spend millions of dollars and giving away money to, you know, random people, then like, how are you supposed to compete?

You know? And I understand that there’s other people, like, you know, Ryan Trahan who doesn’t spend any money and it’s like, he also gets, you know, those views. But, and I’m not, I don’t know if, I don’t even know why I aren’t making this argument. ’cause I’m like, I don’t agree with it.

Insecure About Advice

Matt: But I’m, I, I feel like in terms of like business, I think I’m very insecure about the business that I’ve built because I don’t think it’s, uh, it’s like, and I always said this in the, in the show, I’m like, look.

I’m only gonna talk about me. I don’t like giving advice because I don’t think I really know anything. I’ve just been doing my thing long enough in the way that I like to do it. And if that resonates with you, cool. But please don’t ask me to give advice on your business because I don’t, I think I’ll make the wrong decision for the business.

Yeah. Because I’m only thinking about what I’m willing to do.

Doug: Right.

Matt: You know, so it’s, it comes from a very, like, I don’t wanna say selfish place, but like that’s all I know is me. I don’t study business.

Doug: Mm-hmm. You

Matt: know, I don’t study other people’s businesses.

Doug: So going back to you mentioning like not thinking.

That you had the authority

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: To have a business podcast. So you were a little embarrassed. You were, but the thing is, it’s hard to be self-employed and you’ve been doing it for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I get it. And I think if you, ’cause I, for a period I was doing, um, like mentoring for a startup accelerator.

So it’s like, um, entrepreneurs, inexperienced entrepreneurs, sometimes trying to figure out like how to run their business and the fact that you’re like, you pay your mortgage like you have Yeah. Like you’ve made a good living. Yes. Like that’s the authority. It’s really fucking hard to like run a small business mm-hmm.

Year after year and like manage your cash flow and like just keep everything going.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: So just,

Matt: but I do think, okay, so you’re right, but I think I’m in a special industry. Sometimes I know it’s, I know that’s fake. I know that’s, I don’t, I know that’s false, but like, when someone’s like, Hey, how do I grow this, uh, you know, this fi fashion business?

I’m like, uh, I don’t know. Like, I’ve never done that before. Like, I don’t know the first thing about fashion.

Doug: Yeah. Well, from a mentoring standpoint, you don’t really give people answers. You just ask a lot of questions. Yeah. So it’s like, you don’t really want, so

Matt: I know, but that,

Doug: that’s a little different than like, coaching where you’re, anyway, like

Matt: I know what you mean.

Doug: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lifestyle Business Lane

Matt: But I don’t, um, so I, so for a while I thought that’s why I changed the name, because I was like, well, money Lab isn’t really what I’m doing. What I’m doing is talking about running a lifestyle business, running my lifestyle business. Uh, I feel like that term isn’t entirely great. Like, I don’t know if that’s ’cause like, I also don’t have a crazy lifestyle.

Like my lifestyle isn’t interesting, you know what I mean? I just, I work and then that’s it. You know, like I don’t do, I don’t do, I mean, I don’t do anything. Like I’m, I’m not on the beach all day and like, I work from the beach and I have,

Doug: you’re near the mountains.

Matt: I’m in they’re mountains. Sure. I was like, I have piles of cash, you know, I drive a Lamborghini and I, you know, but I don’t work.

You know, it’s like I don’t, I I don’t have that

Doug: passive income.

Matt: Yeah. I don’t do passive income. Like I, um, so I thought, yeah, this’ll be my lane. My lane will be this like very small sliver of people who are like, who are completely fine running a business with a very small team, making under a million dollars a year.

This is great. I can live here. And I just feel like, uh, I don’t know if anybody wants that. I know people want it, but I don’t think it’s hard to seek out, it’s hard to find, right. ’cause it’s not sensational in any way. So in terms of like the algorithm for, for if I am going to take business casual seriously, right?

First thing I do is put it on YouTube. So there, there ups the budget in terms of like what I would have to produce and I would put a lot more effort into researching show topics and I know, ’cause I know it’s very topic based and I would, and I would understand that it’s not gonna grow to, you know, Gary v levels of, of business.

’cause it’s like we’re not covering those things. And I’m not a sensationalist when it comes to, I don’t talk like him, you know, I don’t, I don’t say ridiculous things, but I would at least do my research in terms of what are we talking about? Like, I would, I would get narrower in what, what I was trying to, um.

What I was trying to say and get really, really clear on that and then have very clear, uh, expectations on like what people, like I would be listening to the audience, like, what do you want as a collective, not just individually. And that’s the content I would make, which was, which would not be for me, like, it would be me saying things I, I’ve said a billion times, just, just in a different way.

I know that that would grow.

Monetizing Without Selling

Matt: What do you sell? What do you sell? Those people, you know, that’s where I get a little, eh, I don’t, I get a little, it gets a little murky for me because if I’m, it’s sort of the financial problem, right? And we had this issue at, um, when we were doing list of money matters. At no point in, in.

So I, when we did the personal finance podcast, I never wanted to sell a personal finance product to people. We were trying to get out of debt. Like we were helping people get outta debt budget, get better with their money. People like me, why would we sell them something? I feel like that’s the complete opposite.

And so I wanted to take the Robinhood approach, which was, let’s take money from people who like, who have the money and basically provide services to like, you know, we can do this podcast as a free service for anyone who’s broke for, or, you know, who doesn’t have money or is trying to get better, better with their money, and we’ll take our money from Betterment or Fidelity or any of these big ass banks who provide services that they all need, that don’t, that don’t cost money out of pocket.

Mm-hmm. To just to learn something or just to have a new tool. So I, I think that that’s the best way to do it. So like, what does that look like in the business world? What am I, what am I not giving you in this podcast that I could sell you on top? It’s probably a service. It’s probably some type of like business service, which I would feel better at doing, but that’s a whole nother company.

Like that’s a whole nother thing to build. So I’m like, or advertising. And so I’m like, well, advertising is the correct answer here. ’cause I’m running a media business. I wanna make this thing great. The way you, the way I’m making money is not taking it from my audience, but instead taking it from companies who need to reach my audience.

I’m okay with that. Uh, it is more work, but I’m like, Ugh, well I don’t wanna do that. So then, for who? For what? Why, why is this existing? Like, what am I doing? What would I do if I didn’t have to do this? Where could I put, where could I allocate? Those resources, brain and physical, where would I allocate those resources?

Refocus on Swim University

Matt: And the answer was with, with no question. Like Swim University. Mm-hmm. Which is my actual business that is a media company that provides a service and has products. So it’s like, okay, well then I should probably do that.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: You know, and it’s not that it’s not fun, it wasn’t fun, it was just, it was something to do.

And again, I still do it. It’s just no one hears it. Mm-hmm. You know?

Garage Pacing and AI

Doug: Do you still, um. Paste in the garage? Yes. Or you said you walk outside some now?

Matt: Uh, now I do both. Yeah. So like, so I’m doing the garage thing. Rarely. I only do it if I need to, like, so as an example, I am working on a long form video for Swim University.

Like the, we’re, it’s the first time we’re making a video over 30 minutes long. ’cause that’s what the algorithm wants. They want long videos now they want podcasts. So we’re doing a long one and I’m the one doing all of it. So in order to get, so, so basically instead of me sitting in a quiet room taking notes and figuring out my script, I talk everything out onto a voice memo.

And then I will feed that transcript into some type of AI that will organize it for me without changing any words or adding new mm-hmm. Hallucinations and build a script from that. So I still use it for work. Yeah, no one, I’m not publishing that, that raw audio for somebody to hear. It’s not, you know, ’cause that’s the thing is like, I thought, oh, well I can still do a podcast, but I’ll make it about pools.

And like I said earlier, no one wants that. So I’m like, and also, do I really want to talk about pools on a podcast all day? No.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: It’s my job and I’m fine with it being my job. Uh, I just want like, actual leisure. And that’s what I said in the, in the show too at the, the last episode, which is like, the thing that I’m bad at is leisure.

And I’m, again, I try to turn everything into a business. So

Doug: yeah.

Work Hours and Boredom

Matt: So what does it look like if my workday is done at like six, seven o’clock at night? What am I gonna do? And I don’t have kids, so like, I don’t,

Doug: what time do you start?

Matt: 10.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Yeah. I’m being

Doug: honest. Still though, man, Jesus fucking, that’s a long day of work.

I, I like,

Matt: obviously. Oh, I don’t, uh, I mean, so I usually go from, so I mean, I get up at like seven

Doug: mm-hmm.

Matt: And I don’t start till 10, so I have three hours of

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Breakfast, showering, doom scrolling, what have you. Yeah. Right. And then, uh, like today, I got started at nine 30, but that was a, just, today was a weird day.

But yeah, usually 10. And then I’ll work until like dinner, which is usually like, pretty early for me. Five or, or six.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Um, and then if I’m, if I literally don’t have anything to do, if I’m, like, I find myself being bored quite a bit, I go, well, I’ll just go work. Mm-hmm. So I’ll just go back down and start, I’ll do like little easy things, like SEOE things or like changing a thing on a website here and there.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: Like, um. Yeah, that’s, that’s usually my schedule. And it’s like five days. I don’t do it on the weekends.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Unless I do.

Doug: Interesting. Yeah. If you’re a little bored.

Matt: If I’m bored.

Doug: Yeah. So my friend Carl and I were working, we were working on a book.

Matt: Mm-hmm. Sorry.

Doug: We were working on a book on laziness and anti productivity.

Matt: Uhhuh, Uhhuh.

Doug: We never got around to finishing it ’cause we really, uh, took it to heart. Although

Matt: that’s, that’s like so funny.

Doug: Yeah. It, it, um, we actually worked on it quite a bit. Funny thing is though, Carl, um, he’s been retired for like seven or eight years now and he has so many projects like he mm-hmm.

There are home projects are his own personal projects. Um, but he’s incredibly busy all the time. Yeah,

Matt: yeah.

Doug: Like he quit the podcast ’cause he’s so busy, busy basically. Um, I’ve. Taken a different route. Mm-hmm. So I was gonna say, like when I’ve talked to people, ’cause you’re used to working and you’re like, I don’t have much to do, you’re like, ah, I could always do a little bit Yeah.

On the business. And um, hopefully you’ll be able to break that habit. Yeah. Because there’s so many cool other things to do and.

Learning Leisure Hobbies

Matt: Name one.

Doug: Well, I was gonna say, I don’t, I don’t even have enough time to, I, I wanna play more music. I wanna play, I wanna practice guitar more, so I’m a little bit better when I’m playing with other people.

And even though I really do wanna do that, I end up like just playing a few minutes. Yeah. Most days, but not nearly enough. And I need to have some more, um, structure around that. And that, I mean, I’m not gonna make money at it. It’s no purely a fun pursuit. And I’m, that is like knowing that I’m not gonna be super awesome ever.

I’ll get much better and I, I have a great capacity to work on it. Yeah. However, it’s a hobby and I’ll always be, it’s great. Yeah.

Matt: Go on on that note.

Doug: Yeah.

External Goals Drive You

Matt: Like, to be clear about the. The, the goal orientedness, I don’t, it doesn’t need to be money.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Necessarily. Right. In, in the case of like, the podcast, it was views, it was some external validation.

I think a lot about, um, I thought a lot about the guitar thing, right? Yeah. And doing music. I, I obviously, uh, obviously, I guess it’s not obvious. So I was in a band for a long time and before I was in a band, I learned guitar because I wanted to be in a band. So like, when I started guitar and my dad was also a musician and grew up in, I grew up in, I just grew up in music, like a music world.

So that was part of our fun as a kid. Like, like that’s what we did, music. And then as I got older, I learned, I picked up the guitar. ’cause before that I had played like drums. I’d played ca, saxophone, all kinds of stuff. Uh, keyboards. When I picked up the guitar, the goal was to start a band. From day one. So I had a reason to get good.

Mm-hmm. And I went to lessons, like I had a 30 minute, you know, lesson every single Wednesday I showed up, I did the work, and then I, I got, I did the work enough to write songs. And then once I could, you know, string two chords together, which didn’t take long, I’m writing songs. And then I formed a band. And then the whole, my whole goal in life was to become a famous musician, like a paid rockstar.

That did not happen. And that was the day I stopped playing guitar. And I still have guitars, but I, they’re not, I don’t have my reason to do it anymore, unless there’s a video idea I have or something where I need music and I just feel like doing it myself. Mm-hmm. But there’s always an external reason for doing it, not just to get good, you know, and that’s why I have that phrase for who?

For what? ’cause I’m like, well. I need this to be for something and it can, it doesn’t have to be money based. It can be anything based so to, to talk about home brewing. Um, which is something we both do. I think I am totally, there was a, there was a long time where I got obsessed and I brewed all the time ’cause I was trying to perfect one style of beer.

And I, and it took me a long time to do it. It took me three years to do it. Once I did that, I have brewed so much less beer because I didn’t, I lost the thing I was trying to accomplish. Now I can invent the new thing. So what I tried to do this year, so I didn’t brew at all last year ’cause I’m like, I need a break.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And what I decided to do this year was I’m like, oh, I’m going to make it a YouTube channel. So like this is gonna be my new goal. And then I just realized that like, well, that’s my goal. That’s what I do at, that’s my job at work. This isn’t, this isn’t leisure. So I’m like, what’s the, so now, and then every time I have, I make beer and people come over, they don’t drink it.

Everyone brings their own shit, you know, we drink and I, I don’t drink it, so it’s like, it just doesn’t,

Doug: I, when you invite me over, I usually drink your beer.

Matt: You do. But

Doug: I’m

Matt: a but, but not like,

Doug: yeah.

Matt: My, I had, when I lived in Boulder, I had a neighbor who used to come over and just like,

Doug: crank ’em.

Matt: Yeah. I’m like, thanks bud.

Yeah. You know? And he was like, you make the best beer. I’m like, yeah. So I, and I’m like, I could do it just for him. I’d be like, yeah, yeah. Oh dude, I got a new, what, what do you like? ’cause I’ll make it for you. Yeah. When I had my wedding, I’ve made all the beers for my wedding. Like, I,

Doug: it was killer cocktails untapped too.

It was crazy.

Matt: So it’s like, I just need the external goal. Yeah. And I’ll do it. I lost that. Super interesting. I lost that for, for business. I lost it. Like I lost the thread. You know,

Doug: and do you like, were you like, I mean yeah, you were like that as a kid.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Doug: And then I was gonna say, yeah, I mean, it’s interesting ’cause I, I obviously I don’t have that.

Yeah. And, and Mo or I let a lot of it go. I was very probably goal-oriented before, but I failed. Like you reaching many goals. A lot of it was like corporate related. And then once I was like, this is kind of bullshit. Then when I was running my, my business, that went pretty well. But I also. I had my foot two areas.

One being like the entrepreneurship kind of, I guess what you were saying, like the hustle culture. Like maximizing. Totally. And then I was like, well, I’m also in this financial independence retire early, where they’re like, oh, this is actually enough. Mm-hmm. So I was like, that fits me better. And then I turned down all of my, um, overachieving tendencies from, I don’t know, maybe many years of school and.

The career area. And then once I turned that down, I was like, my stress level dropped by whatever, 80% or something like that. Mm-hmm. And I’m like, this is really nice. Yeah. Um, and, and the other part is like the bandwidth, which you talked about before. And some people may be thinking, ah, it’s not too much.

You were just, you, you removed friction. But it’s still something. And when I still,

Matt: something,

Doug: when I hear, um, you know, sometimes folks or, or advice that I’ve heard before, someone’s like, oh yeah, you know, you start your podcast and then well, you should put it on, you know, go ahead and put it on YouTube and then, we’ll, you should go ahead and do clips.

Yeah. And it’ll be easy. It’s not that much just do clips on every fucking platform. And I’m

Matt: like, yeah, do it. And then AI it and it’s like, yeah. But it all makes it shitty and then it doesn’t grow.

Doug: Yeah. And then it’s a huge amount of stuff. Yeah. And it’s just like. If you like Instagram, do that. But if you don’t like it, fuck it.

Don’t. Right. Don’t, don’t even pay attention. And you were like, I’m, I’m gonna do my pod. I’m not gonna put it on YouTube.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Because that is a whole,

Matt: I know what that’s

Doug: gonna cost. Huge level of effort and time and all that stuff.

Three Pillars Problem

Matt: And, and, and the thing, there’s, there’s three things I always had like a b word for, for, um, so I had like in my life, like, well, who I am, it’s like business.

It was beer was the other one. And then, uh, I couldn’t think of the other. B it was like, sometimes I, I, it would be like building. So that was my house. So I thought my, I thought my house that I bought was gonna be like a goal of mine, and it turns out that, oh, I hate this. I’m not a handy person. I did it for five years and it just, and, and talk about mental load like that starts to stack.

And I, and I realized that, oh, I, I don’t think I’m a house person. Like I don’t think I’m a house builder. Um, I, business is a, is one thing. But then I was like, you know, then with the podcast I’m like, well, maybe it’s my health. Maybe it’s like the, the 10,000 steps getting, you know, shredded thin, whatever, you know, uh, which that definitely is it, that, that’s definitely still in there.

And the third thing I’ve been trying to like, so it’s like business beard kind of doesn’t work for any of, it doesn’t, it hurts the business. ’cause if I’m hungover, I’m not working. Uh, and if I, it hurts my body because I’m losing so good. You know? Yeah. Uh, so I’m like, okay, that can’t be one of the pillars of my existence.

So, uh, I, it can still be there and it will always be there, but it can’t be a pillar. Right. So then I was like, what could it be? And this, I said this in the podcast too, is I am very bad at leisure. I think you are very good at leisure. It’s all, it’s, and, and I don’t, I think most people don’t have to practice it.

Probably. They’re probably like constantly leaning towards leisure. That’s not my mo. Like I don’t lean, I lean towards work. So when, like, even gr and this has been my whole life. So like it’s not, it’s not that I’ve been bad at leisure. I’ve always had a job since I was 13. I worked weekends. So when everyone else was waiting for the weekend, that was my time to work.

Mm-hmm. After I’d already been in school or whatever. So to me, work is, comfort is leisure to me in a, in some ways, but I feel like. I don’t take vacations. I’ve actually, I tweeted once that I’m like, I don’t go on vacations. Like I don’t need ’em. And then people got really upset at me ’cause they’re like, don’t you can’t be going out there telling people not to vacation.

I’m like, I didn’t say that they shouldn’t vacation. I just said I don’t vacation.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: That’s

Doug: the implication. Like you’re saying, oh, I can do it. And you’re a pussy

Matt: it sounds like

Doug: to it. Yeah.

Matt: Hustle culture. Yeah. It and it absolutely is. You didn’t

Doug: mean it that way, but I,

Matt: oh God. No.

Doug: You’re just like, I do this.

But

Matt: yeah, I prefer to work, but I’ve also built a company where it’s like, my work isn’t stressful. It’s not hard. I enjoy it. So, you know, do I enjoy every day? No, but it’s not like,

Doug: sure,

Matt: I don’t have to deal with clients breathing down my neck or bosses, you know? Mm-hmm. So I think my third thing, and one of the reasons for giving up the podcast and for giving up brew cabin, ’cause that’s part of, this is leisure.

Mm-hmm. How do I get good at that? I don’t know, to be honest.

Boats Aren’t Leisure

Matt: Do I buy a boat? Uh, that sounds like, so I, no. So here’s the thing.

Doug: No, no boats.

Matt: I think about boats a lot because I go, yeah. ’cause boats to me are the ultimate sign of leisure. I love boating. Love it. But then I think about the amount of work it takes to own a boat.

Like just the, just like all the, I’m like, pass. So what is leisure

Doug: interesting?

Matt: Every I jet skis, like, or wave runners, right? Ultimate, you know, how do you, you know, it’s like the, the Daniel to joke is like, you’ve never seen anybody unhappy on a jet, on a jet ski. So I’m like, okay, jet ski. Every single person I know who owns a jet ski, it’s broken.

It’s in the shop. Something needs to be fixed or it breaks in the middle of the ocean. So like. Uh, I, I, I even know people who’ve died on them. So like, no, that can’t, that’s not leisure. Right. Owning more shit isn’t leisure. I don’t know what it is outside of drinking and I know that that’s bad. So I am, I am in that journey to figure that out.

I’m not there yet, but it’s part of giving up these work elements. So it’s like, oh, okay, my, I know my work now is just swim university.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: If I do anything today, if I do nothing, as long as it’s swim, university work, then you, then a day, well, you know, anything else is bonus.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: So that’s why

Doug: couple, um, observations.

One, uh, thanks. I, I am good at leisure.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: I. Also started working when I was like, um, not to one up you, but when I was like 12 and I cut grass, I don’t know how

Matt: this is legal, by the way.

Doug: I mean, I cut grass, so I like, I was self employed. Were

Matt: you getting a paycheck?

Doug: No. No. I mean, I went around and I was like, can I cut your grass?

So I, I got a

Matt: paycheck.

Doug: Yeah. That

Matt: like, I’m like,

Doug: how that is interesting. Well, it was, um, back in the day, I guess they, they were like, uh, so the other thing, yeah, I worked a ton. Yeah. Worked weekends, but I, I shifted and I also, I mean like we have the drive to be productive. Yeah. But I’ve also sh like changed the way I think of productivity.

Health as Productivity

Doug: So one of the big things that you mentioned that I changed into like one of my main activities is like health and fitness.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Because that’s probably like the most important thing that we could spend time on. And it’s super easy. I was chatting with someone yesterday. Who she had, she worked in big tech, so she was like super stressed, ignored her health for years, ate bad food, didn’t exercise.

So she’s trying to, she recently stopped working. She’s working on like getting her health back.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Doug: But basically you could spend hours per day, like trying to figure that out, even if it’s just like walking outside, getting a few more steps, burning a few more calories, and it, I mean, you’re turning the corner in that you’re expanding your steps and you’re doing more and more.

Yeah. Um, but I, last fall inadvertently, I didn’t even notice it. I was like, I’m getting a few, um, less steps per day. Mm-hmm. It was about 2000 steps per day for about three months and just ever so slightly. I started like putting on more fat and it’s just a couple thousand steps a day. Not much. It’s like one mile per day.

Um, so I realized it and now I’ve like added a back and I’m like, oh, I just, it’s a little travel. Yeah. Little sloppy eating.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Um, but

Matt: oh yeah, it’s really easy to slip the other way. I, so my thing with, um, health specifically is I’m very black and white when it comes to my thinking, but weight loss or any health thing is kind of the, you literally can’t spend 16 hours a day focusing on your health.

Right. I’m asking because otherwise your, your knees will be shot or like you, you know, like you, you can definitely be overworked in, in that area. So I’m like, I, I feel like between leisure, which I think is a mental game, it’s a leisure, is like a mental health thing. Health. Health, which is like a, or I should say physical health

Doug: mm-hmm.

Matt: And work. None of those can be done all day. Maybe leisure could. Yeah. I don’t

Doug: know. Yeah. You could do a lot of leisure, I think.

Matt: Like, like at what? ’cause I’m like, it’s probably not healthy to go on the elliptical for six hours a day. Right. Yeah. You know what mean? That’s, it’s like

Doug: David Goggins stuff.

Matt: Yeah,

Doug: yeah.

Which I, again, I,

Matt: it’s maximizing, right? It’s like that whole

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: It’s, it’s, it’s a health maxing.

Doug: He’s, um, he was interesting when I first heard him and then I was like, I’m like, I’m not, I’m not that angry. I’m, or

Matt: I guess if, if you’re that

Doug: he doesn’t

Matt: speak to, if you’re Brian Johnson, you can spend all of your time on

Doug: Right.

Matt: On health.

Doug: Um, but, but you’re right. I think you could spend a lot and, and I’m not thinking, uh, from a fitness standpoint, I think. A lot of it can just be walking slowly. Yeah. Like whatever. Yeah, yeah. Like the pacing you were talking about. Mm-hmm. Um, but you could definitely overtrain. I’ve overtrained in the past and injured like, at least to injury, but

Matt: so

Doug: moderation for everything.

Matt: So like, out of, so I kept trying to find my three pillars. Right. The problem is, is that one of those pillars would always outbalance the other one. So like I mentioned beer as one of my pillars, or even just home brewing.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: It is a, it, it hurts the other two.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Right. Doing too much business hurts, you know, being health physically he or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I had to, I was like, okay, doing too much business or having an, or like even the house thing, like, I’m like, oh, I’m gonna do house projects one, there’s probably a day that that stops. If you only own one house, if you’re somebody who has multiple houses, whatever. Like, but that also is a crazy amount of time that it takes up.

And it’s, and sometimes it’s not like you get to choose when to do stuff. The house chooses you when it’s time to do stuff. So it’s,

Doug: that’s true.

Matt: There’s a, there’s a, and there’s, and it’s, there’s a balance to it, and it’s always not, it’s not super healthy sometimes. Mm-hmm. Like, you’re breathing in, you know, sawdust and shit.

So I know, I’m being like, that’s a little hyperbolic. I get that. But I feel like the, the, the idea of like, I have my little business time, a little business time, I got health time. Mm-hmm. Right. And I have leisure time. Those things fit together. Like they’re perfectly, I feel like they’re perfectly balanced.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: And having the podcast and having the extra YouTube channel, I. Is is just more in the business category. Correct. And in the beer category and just adding more to that plate. And then it gives me zero time for leisure, which is really mental health recovery. Mm-hmm. And then physical recovery. You know, physical health is like, you know that.

One Thing and Freedom

Matt: So I’m like, okay, is it o is it okay to just, and I, and I’ve been saying for nine episodes, what’s your one thing, what’s your one thing that makes you know is your business part is your, is your income based thing. I’m not saying that you can’t have other income streams. Right. I always say like it Swim University, we have multiple income streams at Swim University and then I have, like, I do, you know, investing like everybody else.

And I, I very much believe in the fire principles and you know, my goal is to, uh, not necessarily retire from work. ’cause I do enjoy working. I think it needs to be a pillar in my life forever, but I. Want to be able to, to not work.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: You know, like, I want that

Doug: option

Matt: mental lift or that mental like, like, uh, relief.

Mm-hmm. To be like, well, I don’t have to

Doug: Right.

Matt: I don’t have to do this. I choose to do this now.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: I’m still in a, I’m still in a position where I have to do this. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s, it’s my income and if it disappears, yeah. Maybe I could coast for, you know, a couple of years, but like, I’m gonna need something.

Get it work. Yeah.

Doug: Yeah. And, and that makes, and like when we reached that spot, I was able to make different decisions. Yeah. And I still like working. I mean, this is working. Yeah. But I shifted it to what I wanted and reduced it dramatically. And some people, I. They, um, they continued to want to do a pretty, so, like you may be, I’m not prescribing anything to anyone.

Mm-hmm. But maybe you’re like, oh, I still wanna do like 30 hours a week for me. Yeah. About five to 10. Yeah. Is about right.

Batching for Pure Time

Doug: Every, and I think I, I, I might formalize this a little bit more. Uhhuh, I’ve been a little loose recently where, um, I’m, I’m recording, I publish, I do my stuff, but I think I might batch a little bit more.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: And I kind of, I, I’ve done this in the past where I’m like, I’m not doing shit for six weeks and

Matt: I’m, but what’s the point of batching? Like, what do you, why would you do that?

Doug: Um. It’s just formalizing my schedule a little bit more. So like in one week I’m like, I’m on, like, I recorded earlier this week with someone we’re chatting now, and I just kind of have everything set up.

It runs a little better. So I’m not trying to like gain big efficiencies other than when I’m, my leisure time is pure. I’m like, I’m not. So

YouTube Revenue Reality

Matt: this is still a business for you?

Doug: Yes.

Matt: Okay. Because if you’re, if it is just a hobby, I wouldn’t wanna batch that. Right. I want to just be able to come back to that every little bits, every day.

Doug: Yep. And, and to clarify, so there’s some, there’s some revenue coming in?

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Typically right now it’s through um, YouTube dedicated videos. ’cause I do have, um, the SEO background and the marketing background where companies are like, Hey, can you do a video? And I’m like, I don’t have to do it. So I can negotiate pretty strongly.

Matt: Sure.

Doug: Basically pay for our healthcare.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Okay. So we pay through a CA.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: So it could pay for healthcare. And then, so that said, I also don’t wanna earn too much money because thi this consult your own financial professionals. Yeah, yeah.

Matt: I know what you mean.

Doug: I don’t, but, but like to pay for your own insurance, you can get subsidies if your income is in a certain bracket rage.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Doug: Um, which ours is, which is good.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: So it, I mean, it’s thousands of dollars per year.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: It’s a lot. Um,

Matt: yeah.

Doug: But,

Matt: and that’s, and that’s where we’re trying to get, I mean, we’re not at that level yet, but that’s where we’re trying to get to without the, I still want to work the same hours I work ’cause, and I still wanna do things I like doing.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: But I don’t know, I don’t know what would like, so if, as an example in, in a hypothetical world, if. My three pillars are business and, uh, let’s call it body. And I need something, I need a B word for leisure.

Doug: We’ll have to think about

Matt: that bullshit. Yeah. Just like relaxing, you know, just, just relaxing, leaning back.

I don’t know, some sort of like chilling out. There’s gotta be a B word there anyway.

Selling for Independence

Matt: So if swim University for whatever reason, I get it to a certain point and someone wants to buy it. And if I were to sell it, the money I would make from that sale would allow me to hit the goal that I ultimately want, which is like, I don’t have to work, I choose to work.

Um, which I guess I’m calling financial independence. I keep saying retire, I wanna be retired. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I don’t, I don’t wanna stop working. I’m absolutely replacing. That gap in my, like I’m replacing it with something. I don’t know what it would be in, but I would replace it. Like I would just not do it in pools.

Mm-hmm. But I would probably do the exact same work. I would probably truthfully do this.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Video. Video

Doug: and just hang out, see and think. So

Matt: I don’t know, but it, it would still have to be tied to money. Like it’s still, ’cause it’s a business. So the point of the business is like, even if it’s only a couple thousand dollars or whatever, it has to have that.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: You know what I mean?

Doug: It’s so interesting ’cause I, it will even, we will wrap up here in the next 10 minutes or so, just so I don’t keep you all afternoon.

Matt: No, I don’t care.

Doug: The, um, it’s interesting ’cause I, I have some friends who they have stopped working but then they went back.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Or they continue to work when they can stop and maybe they’ve done that job for many years and I’m like, I feel like.

I feel like they’re making a mistake because the opportunity cost of them continuing to do the same thing for longer

Matt: mm-hmm.

Doug: Is worse than doing something new, novel,

Matt: so

Doug: new. And that’s me judging other people. So I understand the flaws in that. But when I see people and they’re like, oh, I still wanna be a lawyer for longer, I’m like, you’ve done it for like 20 years already.

Matt: Yeah. It’s also, they’re very good at it. So they don’t have to learn a new skill. You know what I mean? Right. It’s just, and it’s probably easier, it’s like being a consultant in business like that. How, to me that sounds like the greatest job ever. Like all, all I do is you call me when you have a problem, I hear the problem and I’m like, well, here’s what I do.

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: That’s the easiest job. ’cause I worked 30 years to, to earn that knowledge and now it’s just free. Or it’s not free. I get paid to share it.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Work Purpose and Volunteering

Matt: Or like an advisory role would be sick, but it’s not work to me that doesn’t feel like work, but like. I, I think there’s something to do with like, and maybe this is not the same thing you’re saying, but there is something to feeling useful or purpose, or not even, not purpose is not the right word, but like, being useful outside of like, ’cause leisure is not useful to other people.

Mostly. Um, health is, you know, again, you could make all these arguments that it’s useful to somebody, but in the case of like running a business, like it’s, it feels good to have something that you’re doing that has purpose or that is, that is useful in society. And that’s But you

Doug: volunteer for stuff.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Consider work. Talk about work. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Doug: Um,

Matt: yeah. So actually interesting you say that. ’cause that means it doesn’t have to be tied to money. Yeah. That means it literally just has to be some form of. Work

Doug: value to someone else?

Matt: Oh, yeah. In a heartbeat. I do that

FIRE Scarcity Mindset

Doug: because that’s one thing with the fire community is like a lot of people have a scarcity mindset and then they do not volunteer and they don’t

Matt: What do you mean by scarcity?

What do you mean? In what, in what way? Like scarcity of hours or time.

Doug: Um, scarcity of money and resources. So they’re like less even

Matt: after the fact?

Doug: Correct. Yeah. And I mean, I’m, I’m slightly susceptible. I mean, I’ve volunteered and Elizabeth volunteers at the library, so we do some stuff, but I think some people are just like, I’m keeping mine kind of thing.

And it, it’s also, there’s a lot of interesting, there’s lot of generous people. Interesting. There’s a lot of very generous people that donate a lot and that sort of thing. Interesting. But a lot of times I’ve heard people, um, yeah, yeah. It’s just there’s a wide range of stuff.

Matt: Um, do, but do you think there’s a number in terms of the money that they have accumulated in their working time that Oh.

I’m okay. Like, it’s like, like they call it fu money, right?

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: It’s like once you get to a point, then it’s like, oh, well I don’t need to worry because like I can see hitting the exact fire number that you need to survive in your current position.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: It’s tight, it’s a tight number. Right? Like, I have a friend who wants to get, he, he wants to be barista fire, which is like fire enough where he can work a job where he gets paid $15 an hour, you know what I mean?

Just for, or just for the health insurance.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: But like, oh, you can’t volunteer. ’cause like, you still actually need a little bit of that money to like, or just in case you never know, something might happen, you know? Mm-hmm. But if you had, I don’t know, $50 million in the bank Yeah. And you’re like, and you had a, and you’re like, I don’t need, like, I don’t need a boat or a helicopter.

Right. I don’t need two cars. So it’s like, yeah, I can, I can live off of three grand a month. Like I’m, I’m completely happy with that. So like. I don’t know, but I have $50 million. Yeah. I’m volunteering all day. ’cause there’s no scarcity, right?

Doug: Mm-hmm. Sorry, what was your question?

Matt: Well, I’m just, I’m, I don’t know if I had a question, but it’s like, um, there’s a number in which they would volunteer.

Doug: Oh,

Matt: right. Because it’s like. Where it’s like, oh, actually don’t need the money’s. Like, I don’t need it.

Doug: Yeah. I don’t know. I obviously hypothetical example. Um, but there’s not as much as, there’s not as much volunteering that I see.

Matt: That you think would

Doug: happen. Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: And we were just talking about this, so like I could be off and there, maybe there’s, there are people, um, I, I forget the guy’s name, but there were some folks that were putting together like volunteer projects Yeah.

Related to like some fire retreats that I go to. And That’s cool. Like they’re trying to get out and do stuff, but there’s also, again, the scarcity mindset and also just people

Matt: Yeah.

Doug: Not,

Matt: I don’t even know if I would, you know, like. I would just work at a place for free.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Like I would like, I would do a job that I’ve always wanted to do.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: You know, that like didn’t require, you know, like a hard skill set, like, you know. Right. An easy skillset. But I’m like, I’ve never done this before. I would love to do it, but I’m like, you don’t have to pay me. Yeah. I don’t need it.

Doug: I think, um, it’s super interesting ’cause I,

Matt: because then you can yell at me if I don’t do something, if I’m not being paid.

What? I mean, you can’t be, you can’t be yelling at me dude.

Doug: When I hear, and I think it’s totally fine some people, ’cause what it comes down to is you’re like, I feel like I should be productive and contribute to society kinda thing.

Matt: That’s it. That’s it. Yeah.

Doug: And I heard one of my friends, um, say this on a podcast the other day also, and I was like, I think ’cause they were kind of shitting on the fire movement.

They were like, I’m gonna keep working. And these guys, yeah. I mean they’re self-employed. They actually have a podcast as well. Yeah. But the thing is, number one, if I kept working, I’m taking a job from someone else. Yeah. So if I, for sure. So that, that’s kinda shitty leisure, my leisurely lifestyle. I spend money and that’s good.

Oh right. Very good thing. And I spend it locally. Locally pretty often. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not always, but

Matt: Right.

Doug: Often. And that’s a good thing to do. Yeah. So I understand he was talking about himself and you’re talking about yourself where you were like, I want to contribute, but I’m like,

Matt: but, but, alright.

Leisure Without Guilt

Matt: So you know how, like you hear about those stories of people dying after they retire when they’re older, right?

Yeah. They, ’cause they’re like, their mind goes, ’cause they have to, they have to do Sudoku puzzles, right? Or they have to do crossword puzzles. I’m like. Or you could just go get a job. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s the, yeah. You don’t get to sit.

Doug: The biggest thing is, uh, yeah, you’re hitting hitting.

Matt: Does that make sense?

You’re

Doug: hitting on my butt

Matt: mental thing.

Doug: Hitting. It’s if you don’t do anything, but I’m not Right. Not doing anything, I’m not. Right, right. I’m doing wonderful things. I have a great social network.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doug: And it’s, um, like this social portion of it in the community is like one of the biggest aspects.

And that all actually stimulates your mind quite a bit. But yeah, the point is you don’t wanna sit down and like just watch TV or scroll or whatever.

Matt: Yeah. Right.

Doug: But you can’t get

Matt: shot’s. My idea of leisure either, just to be clear, like it’s not doom scrolling, that’s why I need to figure out what it’s

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: You know,

Doug: but, but getting a job, like it serves a social thing. You have to learn new stuff, blah, blah, blah.

Matt: It keeps your mind active. It’s, it, it. Yeah. That feeling of productivity in any, or just helping someone mm-hmm. Just being of service to something else outside

Doug: themselves. The volunteering is probably the one of the best things you can do.

But yeah, I’ll, I continue to fight with or argue with people about, like, I think it’s fine if you don’t work, you don’t have to fuck, I mean, not you directly. Yeah,

Matt: yeah, yeah.

Doug: I think people are just used to it and they can’t imagine not working, but it, me and Elizabeth not working, I’ll tell you, it’s motherfucking awesome, dude.

Yeah. I, I can’t, like, we’re so much happier Yeah. Than, and, but I’m not prescribing that to everyone. It just turns out our personalities. Um,

Matt: I think I, it works. That feels like you say that and I’m like, that sounds great. ’cause I’m like, it’s fucking awesome, dude. Yeah. And I’m like, I would, that’s what I, that’s why I want the number where I can say, I don’t have to do this.

Yeah. Like, I don’t have to do this. I now want to do this.

Doug: Right.

Matt: And, and truthfully like. What I do now is I do kind of wanna do it, you know, it is fun in some respects. There are parts of the job that are not fun, but ultimately, I know it’s because I’m gonna get reached that number. But once the goal’s over, like I was saying earlier, once the goal’s reached,

Doug: then you’re like, oh, and I think, um, what I hope people do, like when you hit your number and everything Yeah.

That you’ll, uh, which I

Matt: don’t know what it is.

Doug: You’ll take, you’ll take some time. And not jump to the, because I’ve seen people. Yeah. Actually I had a couple friends, they started nonprofits and then they were so goal oriented that they

Matt: gets

Doug: worse, created a job, and then they were like, wait, what am I doing?

It’s

Matt: probably worse than they had it before.

Doug: Yeah. It was like an arbitrary goal because they set smart goals. Yeah. Just like they did. Yeah. And then they were like, oh, hold on. They, they actually figured it out. But they had a bit of a crisis, like oh shit, for about a year or so, like each of them. But, and they were great, uh, charities, nonprofits that they started and I mean, they had literally started it themselves.

And, um, they had to backtrack ’cause they realized, and anyway, you’ll figure it out.

Matt: You’ll be fine. No, I, I, yeah, I, yeah, that part I’m not. Super. I just do need to figure out the leisure part.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: I don’t, because it can’t,

Doug: it can’t be drinking. ’cause we could do that. I was like, Hey, uh, Matt, we can’t bring down a beer to crack open.

But he was good. Um, I know he was like, not gonna, not gonna do it.

Matt: Not gonna do it. There’s like, yeah. It’s like I could open my garage door, sit down in my chair, drink some beers. I’m like, that’s leisure.

Doug: I got a pro cist German pills. We just have a little sip. You ready? All right.

Deleting the Podcast

Doug: Okay, last question. Have you deleted the stuff yet?

You said, Hey, I’m gonna delete all this shit. Like, what’s, where does it stand?

Matt: It is not deleted yet. I gave, it’s on my calendar to do at the end of April.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Uh, specifically the podcast will be deleted off the internet, uh, for two reasons. One reason is I don’t wanna pay the bill to keep it up ’cause it does cost money.

It’s not a lot of money. I could obviously keep it up, but I don’t know. There’s some like, I like keeping. Things neat and clean. I like just like not having, you know, just not getting that email like, oh, you just paid an invoice. It’s like, I know I can remove that from my inbox. I get it. But I don’t know, just like not having that thing any to pay for anymore is, is relieving.

I don’t, and I don’t have a, an a plan to start a podcast and if I do, I’ll just buy it again. Like, it’s not, doesn’t go away. It’s just, you know, it’s a service.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: Um, so, and I’ve also deleted all of those recordings off my computer. So they’re, they’re nowhere. They’re, if that, if that’s gone, it’s gone. So if anybody wants to download it as an archive, that’s, that’s up to you.

But like to me, I’m not precious when it comes to things like that.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I’m never gonna listen back to any of those, so it doesn’t matter.

Doug: Yeah.

Staying in the Pool Lane

Matt: Uh, the second reason is I think, is kind of what I touched on a little bit earlier. Like, I really don’t, I really wanna be tr Alright. I think I’m, I finally, I’m finally okay with just being the guy who does pools on, like in public, you know, the internet public.

And so anytime I, like, sometimes, you know, people will, uh, see me as the pool guy and they’re like, and then they find Money Lab later and they’re like, oh, you’re also talking about bus, like you’re talking about the business that you’re, I’m like, eh, you know, it just feels a little weird. Um, but then I’ll have people who follow me on Brew Cabin and they’re like, wait, you’re the pool guy.

’cause they all, they have pools and they’re like, oh, wow, this is crazy. Like, I, I watch your other channel.

Doug: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: And I’m like, okay, that’s a little better. But. Uh, and so like the brew cab I won’t take down because one, it’s YouTube. It’s Free’s cool. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, those videos are very good. I’m very proud of those videos and I have more coming.

Mm-hmm. I just need, because they’re like on my plate, I need, they’re not So

Doug: you’re gonna finish them?

Matt: I’m gonna finish them. Yeah. Um, and, and I, and I, and I, that one I want to be able to pick back up because if I do say sells to university or something happens, that’s probably the other business I’ll do.

Like, I’ll probably just do that, you

Doug: know? Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Um, but I just don’t want to be on the internet as a guy talking about business anymore because I am currently actively in a business.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And I just, I don’t know. I ever since crypto, I kind of, and, and truthfully ever since the crypto thing started, AI started and then like truly the manosphere stuff, I’m like, I don’t know if I want to be.

Part of that. I know I’m not, but it’s, you know, I’m adjacent to it and I just kind of wanna like, stay in my pool, pool lane. Yeah. You know, my swim lane, if you will.

Doug: I, I, interesting. Okay. That all makes sense.

Matt: And then, and then for the, for the, uh, uh, newsletter. I, I technically have it for a year.

Doug: Okay.

Matt: Because I bought it for a year and I couldn’t get a refund. So

Doug: we could send out this episode to the, uh,

Matt: I could do that.

Doug: I

Matt: was just, yeah,

Doug: you don’t have to, but, but, um, that’ll help my listenership.

Matt: Yeah. I just was like, all right, I guess I just got, you know, it’s fine. Whatever. I, I did it. I commit it.

Doug: And I did.

I mean, in the last episode you’re like, oh, maybe I’ll be on some shows. Yeah. Which is why I asked you. And like, it’s down the street. So like, it’s like we were talking about it’s fun to,

Matt: I would do this to shoot the

Doug: shit.

Matt: I would do this all ’cause I don’t have to publish it. Yeah.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: I don’t have to do any of the other work.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: And I still get to talk. Which I do like doing. This is kind of leisure for me at this point. It doesn’t feel like work at all. Yeah. So yeah, I would do this all day.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: But then if you, if I had too many offers, then I can’t get some university work done, and then I’m like, well,

Doug: yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Again, for who?

For what?

Doug: Yeah. Very. Uh, very cool. Okay, well, it was good to dig into some of these things and hopefully it answers some questions of your former listeners out there.

Matt: I, I, yeah. Maybe. I think I’ve just made it more unclear.

Why Quit Business Content

Matt: I feel like I was just like, I started talking about my mental health and, uh, because I, that, just to be clear, the podcast was, I enjoy doing it.

It was very easy to do and I loved it, and I still love the idea of doing it. I am, I stopped it to focus on something else.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: You know?

Doug: It’s great when you quit stuff. It does really, even if it’s you, you said, Hey, it’s easy. It’s still a thing that you were like, still thing. I had a deal. Oh, I, I need to, and you were publishing so fucking much that it was kind of ridiculous.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Doug: Like, I could never keep up

Matt: and I, you know, and I had every right to pull back, you know, I was like, oh, I’ll just go down to th I’ll go back down to three days a week again, which is what I did towards the end. Mm-hmm. Because I’m like me. Yeah. You know? ’cause I’m like, I don’t, and a lot of it was, and I said it in the email too, is like, I lost stuff to talk about.

’cause I’m like, well, my business is like so boring. I’m just cranking over the same things. So I’m like, not doing anything interesting. People weren’t emailing him with questions, so I was like, well, I don’t really have much to talk about. So I’m like, I don’t, so I wasn’t walking as much, but I would still go out there and like, just pace, you know?

Yeah. Just for the hell of it. Um, so yeah, I, I, I lost stuff to talk about and I wasn’t consuming as much. Business content. Like I stopped paying, I, I unfollow a lot of those people that I mentioned because I’m like, stop giving me more ideas. I know what I’m supposed to do. I don’t need more chatter. That’s like, Hey, have you tried

Doug: just a classic?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Have you tried this AI trick? I’m like, no, but I’m going down to the basement right now and fire my computer and I’m gonna try it.

Doug: Yeah.

Matt: And I’m like, Ugh. And then I wasted like three hours screwing around with Claude Cowork and I ended up getting nothing done. It’s like, yeah. Yeah. All right.

This was a waste of time.

Doug: Yeah. Alright, well, we’ll have you back on before too long. Sweet. And um, thanks for joining me today.

Matt: Thanks for having.

Doug: Appreciate it.

Matt: Yeah, thank you.

Doug: People could find you nowhere.

Matt: That’s right.

Speaker: Right.

Guitars and Amp Talk

Speaker: I have a bunch of guitars out and we played some music together a little while back. Have you been playing much or doing anything or any? No. Not at all. No. Okay. Not since that one time. Yeah. When I have to, when I have to do a project, I’ll do it. Okay. You know what I mean? But if I don’t have to do a project, you didn’t have anything.

Speaker 2: Well, that’s not true. I mean, like I’ll, I’ll. I’ll listen, I’ll hear some song while I’m working and then I’ll pull the guitar up and then I’ll plug it in and I’ll hook up the amp. Okay. And I’ll mess around for like 30 minutes. And then, yeah. Yeah. Then I’m like, wait, why? I don’t have nothing to do. I’m just, yeah.

So I just give it up. And when, when I went over, I can’t remember. Um, which amp you have? It’s an orange something. Is is it like 35 watt? Tell me the specs on that. Orange rocker. 35. Okay. Is it two 12? Two 10, I believe. Two 10. Oh, nice. Okay. Is that right? That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. The, yeah, it’s common. Yeah.

12 to be a, that’d be a huge Yeah. Box. But some, somehow, I mean, it is a, it’s loud. Yeah. Yeah. It’s loud. It, I, I’m surprised I, I bought it because it was small. Right. And I can barely turn it up. Like one, one, I have to like, like, you know, ’cause it, ’cause it’s, you know, it’s tube amp. Yeah. So I’m like, I go to turn the knob.

And I, I get a sound and it’s like, cool. But if I go any louder, I’m like, oh my God, it’s too loud. And I, and there’s like this perfect spot where it makes sound and it’s the quietest it’ll go. But if you turn it anywhere below that, yeah, you get nothing. It’s so much. It’s funny. Um. I knew, like I have the one in front of us.

Speaker: It’s like a 15 watt two band, the one that’s down there. Um, yep. Correct. Yeah. And I had that first, and it can keep up with a drummer. It’s loud enough, it stays clean ish for a little while. Um, and then I got a five watt, um, like champ. That’s the smaller one. Mm-hmm. Down there. Is it the same company? It is a different company.

That one is like a boutique handmade little guy. And that sounds really good. Oh yeah. That’s the one I brought to your house. Really good. That’s called Carl’s. Carl’s Amp. Yeah. Carl’s custom amps outta New Mexico. And then. I was thinking, alright, like I know you mentioned your 35 water was like super loud and so loud.

You know, you, you hear people talk about like, you really don’t need like that big of wattage. I’m just playing for fun. Yeah. But I ended up getting that 50 watt over there, which sounds beautiful. It’s a much bigger, it’s a one by 12 in that. Um, cab over there, Uhhuh, which is the same as the Blues Junior, but it sounds so much better with like a bigger box.

Speaker 2: Oh, so interesting. And then with the 50 watts, like you can crank it up insanely loud, but the other thing is it stays clean much. Louder so it can play. Right. Nice clean tone. And I, and I guess it’s Mo High Treble or no? Is it give, does it give you a lot of base? Um, both. I mean, I mean Okay. It’s, it can give you a lot of bases, particularly like, because it’s a big cab.

Mm-hmm. So it does sound pretty basey if you turn it up. Oh, I meant the smaller ones. Oh, the smaller ones not, no, not, not very much. Base. Yeah. Okay. They’re pretty mid forward because I, I had a, I had one similar to the fender you have there. Yeah. But it was a silver, a silver, you know, shape. Sure. And it’s like a, the, the standard one I think you get, you know.

Okay. It was a decent amp, um, probably the size of my, of that. Like the brown one you have there? Yes. Or the rocker that I have. Okay. But. Fender, was it like a Fender deluxe reverb or something like that? Must, yeah. Okay. Because it the like it’s a popular one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it, I’ve looked at and I like those would’ve been another choice also.

That was the first one I ever had. Okay. First amp I ever had. And it could have been, I mean, back in the, because that was like in the two thousands or whatever, early two thousands, nineties. Okay. Yeah, like 90, 90. Four. Oh, okay. Yeah. 19 hundreds. The 19 hundreds. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And, and I was gonna say like those could have been, um, like solids or was it a tube amp or do you know?

Yeah, it was Okay. Interesting. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. It had to have been right. ’cause there’s. Back then in the 1900? Yeah, early 19 hundreds. Late 19 hundreds. They, they had, um, yeah, they had this solid state. So it could have been like any num, it could have been a, um, ooh, a champ X or I, I don’t know the exact name, but they had a handful.

Headphone Levels Wrap

Speaker: Um, can you turn me up here? Yeah. Or so I can hear myself in my own headphones. Okay. And you went, do you want, I feel like I’m yelling. Am I yelling? It was loud before and now. Okay. Yeah. I did turn, I turned you a little bit down. You turned me down. Then I realized ’cause I was like, I don’t want to hear myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah. But now I feel like I’m yelling, so, okay. Do I stand over? You sound perfectly clear. Okay. Yeah. And you, I was gonna say you’re a little bit louder, so do you wanna Oh, I’m louder. On there. I just need it louder my, in your my Okay. Yeah. In my cans, as I say, there you go. Than the studio world. And I’ll turn that down.

Speaker: Okay. Yeah. Does that sound a little better? Yeah. Or you have to talk? Uh, yes. Okay. As, um, I, I like using headphones. We’ll leave that in. I was gonna say, I like using headphones because it kind of isolates the situation. Mm-hmm. But I was gonna say like, you’re a pro, so you like to hear yourself in your headphones.

I do too. Yeah. Esp. Esp. Well, yeah, and I need ’em like cranked. Okay. When I’m, if I’m recording. Sure. Yeah. But yeah. Okay. This level is good. Now a little, a little bit more. Okay. Okay. But you’re getting louder too, right? Yeah, that’s fine. I’m okay with you being loud. Yeah. I just don’t want to feel like I’m screaming.

Speaker 2: Okay. Because like I’m like trying to scream through my headphones. I can also just take one. Ear off. Oh, oh. And do that. Yeah. Which is what, usually what I do when I’m like, if I have to record vocals Right. I do it this way. Or I’ll put my finger in my ear sometimes just to hear myself. Okay. Put your finger in there.

Yes. It’s good. Just, you know, it’s, it’s an old singer’s trick. I, I, alright.