Doug: Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to the Mile High Five podcast and the Doug Show. And today is gonna be a different kind of episode. I’m obviously publishing this on both feeds out there, number one because I’m lazy, and if I have the opportunity to use the same content in two places, that’s a great use of my time.
And then the other different thing is, um, the topic areas. So today, I have a very special guest. It is my brother-in-law, Sam. How are you today?
Sam: Great.
Doug: Good to have you in the studio, and today we’re gonna talk about a couple, uh, actual finance topics. We weren’t planning on it. I was just gonna have a random episode where we shoot the shit and talk about food and cooking and other stuff that we would normally talk about.
But along the way, we figured out there were actually a couple finance-related topics.
Sam: Yeah.
Doug: And it’ll be around budgeting trips because Sam, what are you doing here in my studio?
Sam: Yeah. I, I am on a trip. Uh, I do not live here in Colorado. I live in Virginia. Um, so yes, this morning I got on an airplane and I-
Doug: You made it
I made it over here. Yeah. And we, we hung out. We could talk about what we did today in a second, but yeah, budgeting trips, and I was like, “Oh, I’m curious,” like, “How did you budget this trip?” So we’ll get some of the details, and then you also have a big trip with the family going to Iceland to see the total solar eclipse in a few months.
Mm-hmm. And that is a, uh, a, that is a very popular time to travel there. Yeah. Me and everyone else- Yeah … is going to Iceland that week. Yeah. So that’ll be interesting, and then the other segment is gonna be about food and cooking, and we share an interest in that area. We’ll spend time talking about, um, pizza, which is a little related to what we did earlier today, coffee, barbecue and grilling, and just some other stuff, and wherever, whatever tangent, um, we end up on.
So, um, as a q- actual question that could help guide this, have you ever listened to either one of my podcast? Yes. Oh, okay. Both of them, I think. A little bit. Oh. Yeah,
Sam: yeah, yeah. Thanks. I- And that’s not
Doug: just for the camera. No, no, no. No, okay.
Sam: I, I… Let’s not… I’m not going to, like, inflate my listening, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
You’ve heard- I’ve listened to, uh, uh, several episodes. Um, and like, you’ve come on, like, while driving around in the car. Oh, just naturally. And, yeah. Just because, uh, what, uh, the, the podcast app does what the podcast app does. Oh, okay. And, uh, yeah, I’m subscribed. So it- Okay … you’ll come on after, um, like, the kids’ podcast or something, and then- Okay
and then- Cool … the kids will say-
Is that Uncle Doug?
Doug: Sure. Yes. It’s like he doesn’t cuss that much in person. Which I, which I cuss a little bit on the show, and then you may have… Like, we were together a few weeks ago, and I don’t… Generally, like, I don’t cuss, um, most- especially if kids are around. But, like, on the show in general, really, like today I cussed a lot, right?
Or did you even notice? You didn’t even hear it. I think I caught one F-bomb. Okay. Um- You’ve learned to just tune… I mean, it just sounds natural. Okay. Yeah.
Sam: It does- cussing does not bother me. Yeah. Uh, there’s plenty of it in our household. Sorry, Christie.
Doug: Okay.
Meet Sam And Trip Plans
Doug: So can you give a quick intro, as much as you’re comfortable talking about, um…
You know, we’re not gonna blur out your face unless you want to. But, uh, w- I mean, we can. But yeah, who are you, so people have an idea of your, your overall background and such like that?
Sam: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll keep it high level. Uh, I am a scientist. Um, I have a, regular sort of professional type job that I’m lucky enough to be able to do from home, um, at least for the foreseeable future.
Um, but…
Doug: Yeah, okay. I don’t know. You’re a professional, you’re a scientist. Professional scientist. And, um, sounds like you like it enough. I do. Fine. Cool. Yeah. All right.
Sam: But I’m not, uh, not financially independent. Sure. Uh- You don’t have to. I haven’t retired early. That’s cool. Yeah. Uh.
Doug: It’s fine, yeah. Many of the listeners- But I, but I have- Oh, go ahead
I
Sam: have a spreadsheet.
Doug: You have a… Oh, you know. Yeah, I have
Sam: a
Doug: plan,
Sam: yeah.
Doug: Oh, we haven’t talked about it much. No. ‘Cause what I mean, that’s one of the… Some people may think, uh, me, like I have a podcast talking about financial independence, I’m like, if people wanna talk about it, I’ll talk about it, but I’m not like, “Hey, uh, I really need you-
to, uh, pay attention to this stuff.” So, um, yeah, we’ve literally, uh, not talked about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we’re not gonna talk about it now. We’re gonna talk about other shit. It’s
Sam: great.
Doug: Okay. So you’re on this trip, and pretty cool, you’re h- you’re gonna hang out with some friends. Tell us about that.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is, um, this is a guys’ trip with, uh, my college buddies. Um, we try to get together semi-regularly, but it’s been, uh, uh, like we s- talked about, like seven years since there’s six of us, the six of us have were all in the same place at the same time. So, um, yeah, sometimes we try to get the families together.
This time it’s boys only.
All right.
And, uh, we landed in Denver because I asked ChatGPT what the most- inconvenient city for all of us. We, we live up, you know, spread across the country. Yeah. Um, and it turns out Denver’s actually a very convenient city, the direct flights for everybody and plenty to do and- Yeah
yeah, looking forward to it. So I flew in a couple days early to see you and some other friends that live here and- Nice … that’s why I’m here.
Doug: And one of the big things that you’re gonna do, which I recommended, is, uh, check out Casa Bonita. So you guys will be going there. That’s
Sam: right. I texted you back in, like, January when we were first kicking around the idea, and I was like, “What are your top recommendations?”
And you responded, I think within, like, 10 seconds- … “Casa Bonita.” So, okay. I’ll put that- Yeah … on the list.
Doug: Yeah. And I, I mean, I was like, make su- I mean, I’m a fan of South Park, and I saw it back then, and I assu- I was like, “Make sure most of your crew is South Park fans and will give a shit. Um, otherwise, it’s just, like, an okay restaurant.”
Your kids would lo- like, you could take kids there and they would have a blast. But it’s also for kids at heart. Like, all y’all. Yeah. ‘Cause you’re in your, uh, early 40s. Is that- Well- … basically everybody?
Sam: Yeah. I mean, we met, we all met, uh, in our freshman year dorm, so we’re all exactly the same age. We’re, like, within a couple of months of each other.
Okay. We’re all 42. Cool. Which is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
Doug: And, and, um, yeah, I mean, it’s pretty cool. And this is one of the themes that we talk about sometimes on the show where especially men roughly our age, I’m five years older than you. And yeah, basically it’s like, it’s good to go, uh, away from the family, like go hang out, keep the relationships active, ’cause it’s super easy for seven years to go by.
COVID happened in the middle of that, but yes. It’s true. Yes. Yeah. And it takes effort and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Budgeting With Points
Doug: Which, and, and also money, which brings us to-
Sam: Oh, yeah …
Doug: when we were walking around, um, which we’ll tell you why we were walking around in a few minutes. But we were walking around and I’m like, “Oh, how did you budget for this trip?”
You know, there’s a, there’s a flight. You have food. You guys got a fairly large Airbnb to, to have all six of y’all. You have, um, a big day at Casa Bonita. You’re probably gonna buy some expensive Colorado beers and whatever. Yeah. So how does one budget in the scope of the, the family and all that stuff?
Sam: Yeah.
I don’t know how interesting this is going to be, because the answer is not very much at all. Um, like, luckily we’re in a position where, um, a few hundred bucks or a few thousand bucks, um, isn’t gonna make or break much, especially ’cause we didn’t really go anywhere last year. We didn’t have a v- very big, like, trip year last year.
Mm-hmm. So this trip and then Iceland coming up Not a big deal. Also, we used miles for the flight. Okay. Um, so we have credit card, you know.
Doug: Yeah.
Sam: We do the credit card thing, and every, every once in a while it’s like, “Hey, we have enough to
Doug: go somewhere.” To fly. Did, um… For the credit card points, did you get, like, the big sign-up bonus for United, or it was just like you have Chase points or something like that, and you could, you know, you moved them to another-
Sam: Yeah, this was A- I think we used Amex, or I used Amex for this trip.
Um, so yeah, that is just, like, regular accrual. Okay. Um, we don’t do… I don’t, like, jump credit cards every three months to chase sign-up bonuses and stuff like that. I j- we just, we have a credit card that we use for, um, groceries and restaurants, uh, that get whatever multiple seem good, and then another that we use for everything else.
Okay. And, uh, and we charge everything, like absolutely everything. Yeah. Um, pay it off every month. Yeah. And then, um, and then, yeah, like I said, every, every once in a while we’re like, ”
Hey,
that’s enough.” That’s- “That’s worth a hotel room or a flight or whatever.” Yeah, yeah.
Doug: And we’re, we’re a little… Or we were more similar.
Like, we do largely simplify and just have, like, one card where I think it might be, it’s between 3 and 4% cash back, and we just use that- Mm … because of the simplicity and st- ’cause some people are like, “For restaurants,”- Yeah … “use this. When we get gas at Costco, use that.” Yeah. Yeah. And it, I mean, it’s certainly manageable, but for me right now is not interesting or exciting.
Some people really do enjoy it, um, but I do not- Yeah … at all.
Sam: I, uh, I… Like, when I was in grad school, we had very little money, and Christie, um, was also… She, she switched careers. Career. If you can call switching careers out of the first thing you do out of college- … switching careers. But she did it. She had to go back to school- Right.
Yeah … um, and get another degree, and did. It is a different career. Um, right, so, so she wasn’t bringing a- bringing in any income either. And so, like, optimizing a small amount of money felt more worthwhile at that point, and so I did try to optimize things a little bit better- Yeah … um, before. Now, like I said, like, we’re fine, and so, like, the benefit of spending the time to chase down a percentage point or two isn’t really- Yeah
worth it anymore.
Doug: Yeah. Totally, totally agree, and I have dabbled I have dabbled lightly with credit cards that have the big sign-up bonus, and that is worthwhile occasionally. It’s very good. So like a year ago, I signed up for the Sapph- Chase Sapphire Preferred maybe, $1,000 bonus. Elizabeth could sign up for it also.
Mm-hmm. And she did, so that was like 2,000 bucks. And like to your point, we just did normal spending. It was well within whatever we would hit in three to months or whatever. Yeah. So it was fine. And then I did it for IHG, which we recently were on a trip together with the family, and we were at a super, you know, high-class hotel, the Holiday Inn Express.
Yeah, I noticed
Sam: you picked up the, the hotel rooms for everybody. Thank you.
Doug: You’re welcome. Right, right by… You know, I, I wanted it to be, um, easy access, so it was, um, 100 feet from the fucking inters- it was so close to the cars. I can’t believe it.
Sam: The text you sent was hilarious. I don’t r- do you remember what you said?
No, I don’t. Okay. So, uh, I think you got there n- the night before everyone else did, and you s- you sent a text to the family group chat that was like, uh, “The hotel is great. If you like being so close to the interstate, you can feel it.”
Doug: And you could. You literally could feel it. And side note, so you, you guys rented a car and, um, you know, we drove around.
W- we’re from Atlanta. We, we went to school in the city. Like, we’re used to traffic. It, it’s another famous city with bad traffic. Dallas, big sprawl, huge city, uh, beautiful, good food, blah, blah, blah. Who designed the highways there? It’s hard
Sam: to drive, man. They did not hire great civil engineers. I don’t know where they got those plans from.
Doug: But holy crap. And it’s, um… It takes a second. Yeah, like you recalibrate, and I’ve, I had traveled and driven there before, but like many places, traffic is worse than it was back then, and, uh, people drive fast, and there’s a lot of people. And the, the major issue is, um, the access roads next to the highways and the merging and-
Sam: Yeah
it, it’s hard. It’s not intuitive. So you dri- some places have… We can talk about engineering principles, right? And like human factors. Like- Yeah … some places, the roads are designed, the exit, the signage is good. Like it’s intuitive to get where you need to go. Like even if you didn’t have Google Maps telling you- Yeah
exactly, like you could probably figure it out. I need to go east. I know what interstate I need to hit, whatever. Dallas was not like that. You need to know- … to get off the interstate three miles prior to when the actual exit is. Yeah. There’s zero merge lanes. Yeah. Uh, you, you’re, you’re, yeah, you’re expected to just like merge going 65 miles an hour, I guess, and, and hope for the best.
All right. Yeah. My, my biggest issue was that it was, uh, not intuitive.
Doug: Perfectly stated. And, and that is the thing. Like, you… It was a little confusing. You kinda could get better at understanding the layouts, but at the end of the day, like, you kind of had to know where you were going, um, a mile or two before you had to turn.
Yeah, yeah. And again, like many other places, Dallas is not unique in this, there’s construction everywhere. So it’s just, like, things aren’t quite right. Yeah. And, um, one issue, I love to alienate the audience, so most people are like, “Oh, we don’t give about, give a shit about the traffic in general,” but let alone Dallas specifically.
It’s also really
Sam: boring to hear somebody complain about traffic.
Doug: Like, it’s a unique experience.
Sam: Yeah.
Doug: So the few people in Dallas understand this. Yeah, yeah. But we, we can move on. Thank you for this one. No one wants to hear you complain. Um, the hotel was fine. Right next to the interstate, so it was actually easy to get on the interstate when we needed to.
Yeah. So that was nice. Unless, I don’t know if you did this- …
Sam: you went out the wrong side of the parking lot.
Doug: Oh. Yeah. I- One, the
Sam: one side of the parking lot you could hit the ramp. The other side you were stuck on the access road for another mile.
Doug: We, we almost did, um, that same thing. It, yeah, and again, silly thing, but that, you know, I don’t know how it was in your car, but sometimes there’s, you need, like, a navigator position, and it’s like, “Hey, wait a second.
Are you going out the wrong, uh, exit from here?” And we’re like, uh, it’s like, “Hey, wait a second. It, can we… ” Yeah. You gotta go over there to the, um, the taqueria- Mm-hmm … uh, parking lot to get out, so. Okay. So getting those, uh, signup bonuses are sometimes, is pretty worthwhile.
Sam: Yeah, yeah. And every once in a while I, I look and we switch credit cards every once in a while when I f- whenever-
Doug: Yeah
Sam: the mood
Doug: strikes. Yeah, I think we’re maybe, like, once a year. Um, ’cause it, it’s not a huge hassle, but it’s also, unless it’s a really good bonus, it’s just not worth it to me. And, and, and like you said, some people it’s, like, very valuable. They- Yeah, yeah, yeah … they can take all their vacations on, on that.
Yeah.
Sam: More power to them. Um, I wish I had the, the time and inclination to- Yeah … to chase those things down. Every once in a while I’m like, “I, yeah, I could, I could optimize this better.” Yeah. I feel the same way about all of our finances and, like- Yeah … like,
Doug: this- It’s just a mess …
Sam: uh, this
Doug: could be better. I know.
Yeah.
Iceland Eclipse Trip
Doug: So let’s talk about the Iceland trip. You are heading out in August and yeah, just kinda tell us the overall plan and then we’ll get into some of the details.
Sam: Sure. Uh, so there was a total solar eclipse across much of the US- two years ago?
Doug: Yep, 2024 in- Yeah … April.
Sam: Yeah. Um, so I had to travel for work that day, um, and I was, like, where I was, we all went out and, like, looked at it through the glasses and stuff.
It was nice. Yeah. Um, and Christie also had to work that day, and so the kids went to school and went to their normal after school. But everyone had been talking about it, like, they had learned about solar eclipses in school, and like, “Oh, boy, the solar eclipse is coming,” kind of stuff. And then we found out that they, they didn’t take the kids out to look at it.
Oh. Because, like- Liability … liability. Yeah. Right. And so total- totally makes sense. Um, but the kids were super disappointed. And so we looked up, like, all right, well, like, what’s the next solar eclipse that we could conceivably get to? And it’s this one coming up. It’s hitting Iceland and, um, like the western portion of, like, Spain and Portugal, I think.
And so we were like, “Eh, you know, like, a big family trip could be fun.” Um, Christie and I went to Spain a few years ago. More than a few years ago now that I think about it. Um, but we were like, Iceland. That… I mean, how cool would it be to see a total solar eclipse in Iceland? So we were like, all right, put that, mark it on the calendar, um, a year out.
Start planning and booking. Of course, we are not the only ones to think that seeing a total solar eclipse in Iceland would be a cool thing. So, um, as we started, like, putting it together, we’re realizing that, like, we’re probably paying, I don’t know, eight to 10 times the amount that we would go just, like, on a- Yeah
a random June week. Right. Um, and so yeah, there were, there have been conversations like, is this worth it to, like, make the kids happy? Um, is this gonna be, like, such a significant, like, family experience and memory that it’s worth spending, like, so much extra money- Mm … uh, to make it happen? And, uh, and yeah, like, I think at the end of the day, like, spending money on experiences, um, uh, has been a lot more valuable than spending money on things.
I like spending money on things too, though.
Doug: A good balance between the two, yeah. And yeah, super cool. I mean, if you’re able to see the eclipse, ’cause the weather is always… I mean, no matter where you go, it’s tough. So, yeah. So
Sam: there’s only, like- I think a 50%, like cloud cover is like 50%-ish that time of year in Iceland, so like right off the bat it’s a huge question mark.
And then, uh, finding a place to stay within the path of totality was just like totally outside of our budget. Just like insane numbers for a night. And so, so we’re not staying in the path of totality, which means we’re gonna have to drive, and there’s only one road in Iceland. Yeah. And so I’m, like I’m also thinking like what if we just get stuck in traffic like two hours away from the eclipse, and everyone two hours in front of us can see it just fine, but we’re just like- Yeah
stuck. That’s like a nightmare scenario for me.
Doug: Yeah. Is there, uh, obviously you have, uh, time to think of solutions for that, but I mean, that’s a tough solution with one road and such a limited space. Yeah. Like is there anything that you can do aside, like have some snacks and, uh, water and some kinda pee
Sam: bucket?
The best I can come up with is, um, get up at like 2:00 a.m. and try to beat other people.
Doug: It will be, uh, you know, bright enough at that time of day that- Yeah, it should be.
Sam: Yeah. The eclipse isn’t until the afternoon, like 4:00 p.m.- Okay … or so. Um, so I’m like, all right, if we get there 14 hours ahead of time-
may- maybe, maybe we’ll be able to
Doug: see it. Get a cooler and just have all your food there. Um, we were some of the people that were telling you, “Hey, ch- check out the eclipse.” Uh, we probably told you like a couple years ahead of time ’cause we saw it. We’re lucky enough to have seen it twice, 2017, and then we were like, um, “This was so awesome.
We definitely need to try to do it again.” And it was like, oh, seven years later, so mark the calendar. So the first time we saw it in Idaho Springs, I think. Idaho Springs, Idaho, which was a few hours from Bozeman, where we were living at the time, and it w- it’s like indescribable, and I know that you have seen, um, even up to 99%, um, you’ve seen other partial eclipses, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Many people are like, “Yeah, I saw it. It got a little dark.” Like maybe you saw some funny shadows as the sun was, uh, filtering through a tree- Yeah … or whatever. Yeah. So kind of interesting, but whatever. But when you see the total eclipse, it’s like- Again, indescribable. Yeah. So I won’t be able to describe it well.
But a hush, uh, like, falls over the crowd. You get chills. I mean, it’s sort of life-changing, one of those things. And it was the second time as well. And, um, yeah, so I… You know, good luck with the, with the cloud cover because obviously you can’t control the weather, so you never know, and we got super lucky to have- Yeah
like, just perfect blue skies on those particular days, so.
Sam: Yeah, great. Yeah. I, I mean, money aside, it’s… I think it’s gonna be a great trip. Yeah, what else do you guys have planned?
All the
regular stuff- Mm-hmm … I guess. Um, uh, I’m gonna do the snorkeling thing between the continental, uh, plates and- Oh, yeah … um, I’m not going to even try to pronounce the name of the national park that you do that in.
Um, just me, though. The kids are too young to do it. Okay. So Christie was like, “Hey, the… You wanna do that? Like, I’ll take the kids to go see a geyser or something.” Yeah, yeah. Um, and you can go do that. So I’m really looking forward to that.
Doug: Cool.
Sam: Um, and then yeah, geysers, hot springs,
Doug: beaches, uh- A lot of volcanic, geological kind of stuff, right?
Yeah. Uh, waterfalls and puffins and stuff. Are the kids into that stuff? Are they, like, learning about it in school and they, like, can understand conceptually, like, what they’re gonna g- go do?
Sam: Yeah, yeah. Myra for sure. Okay. Um, she’s 10. Um, and so yeah. She gets it. Yeah, she gets it. Uh, my son is, um… How old is he?
He’s six and a half. Um, I never really understand, like, how much he’s internalizing. Mm-hmm. But then he always surprises me with, with stuff, so I think he probably gets a lot of it, too.
Doug: Yeah, okay. Yeah, it’s interesting. I, I was… I mean, obviously I can’t remember how much I understood at six or whatever. I feel like I kinda had some understanding, but I’m sure, um, I had no clue at all about
Sam: much.
Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t take much to understand a waterfall, so. He gets that. He’ll get that. Um, but, like, the, the reason that the, that waterfall is here in this place and why that’s kinda neat, maybe, maybe not.
Yeah,
Doug: yeah. Okay. And are you guys able to get, like, a direct flight? Oh. Talk about the travel. Is that gonna be- Yeah
tough? Okay. Yeah.
Sam: Um, also can’t afford direct flights, so we’re, um, doing, like, weird layovers in Copenhagen, um, there and back. Uh, so yeah, I think we’re flying out Wednesday evening, arriving- Uh, in Europe Thursday morning, and then we have, like, a, not a terrible layover before hopping over to Iceland. Mm-hmm.
And then sort of the same, although kind of worse on the way back. Our, our, our flight out of… Our flights got changed. Uh, we had, we had picked things out and made plans, and then the airline sent us an email that was like, “Yeah, we’re changing all that.” You know. “Tough nuts.” Uh, “You can contact us, I guess, if you don’t like it.”
And we were like, “We don’t like this. Like, you’ve cut our vacation like two days short.”
Doug: Oh, man.
Sam: Yeah. So we ended up extending the trip for a day, um, ’cause we felt like that was better. If you’re already there. If you’re already there, yeah. Yeah. Um, but it means we’re flying out at, like, 1:00 in the morning.
Oh. So we’re not even getting a hotel room that night. Um-
Doug: Just a breakfast …
Sam: not exactly sure
Doug: what we’re gonna do. Oh, man. Yeah, that, that is tough. Oh,
Sam: you guys will
Doug: have
Sam: a
Doug: fine time. I, I was gonna s-
Sam: It’ll be, it’ll be fine. I, uh, you know, it’ll be a story.
Doug: To you. So you mentioned that you didn’t take a big trip last year, and this, uh, trip will be a lot.
Are, are you able to share, like, the general scope, like tens of thousands of dollars- Yeah … kind of? Okay. Yeah, yeah. And how are… Do you have, like, a budget line item? So back to the budgeting idea, do you have, like, a budget line item in your sh- spreadsheet? You’re like, “Annually, we usually spend about this in travel,” so you’re like, “This kind of fits in there if we take into account the trip that we didn’t take last year”?
Yeah, if you amortize it over- Yeah. … yeah. Yep. So h- how do you justify this?
Sam: Um, yeah, a, a little bit of that. Okay. Um, we… I ha- we don’t have, like, a f- a travel budget. We have, like, a, uh, like a fun fund. Mm-hmm. Um, so our finances are, like, totally blended. Mm-hmm. Um, we don’t keep separate pots of, like, “This is my money, and this is Christie’s money,” or anything like that.
It’s just one family pot. Um, but there’s, like, you know, the needs, the wants, and then, like, the really frivolous. And- Okay … so, and so, like, money gets dumped into the frivolous account. Um, and travel ends up being a little of, a little of a want and a little of fr- like, depending on- Right … what it, what it’s gonna be.
Doug: And that makes sense. I mean, w- we, we have a travel line item, but I think What you’re saying totally makes sense, where it’s like everyone needs to have some recreation and leisure time, so maybe the minimal, um, the, the want part, technically you wouldn’t have to do the leisure stuff. But you would at least, like, go camping or have, like, some little trip even if the scope is much smaller, and then the frivolous part can grow, uh, indefinitely.
Yeah. That’s one of the great things with travel. Yeah. Like, there’s no top, top end. There’s no upper limit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you view, you view it that way, and then from an overall budget… So you guys have, um, you know, a blended, uh, just one family, uh, budget and checking account and credit cards that you share, whatever.
Um, from the percentage, like, did you guys work on that together where you’re like, “Hey, this is roughly what we spend”? How did you come up with this?
Sam: No. Uh, Christie has, like, zero interest. Mm. And then so I, I handle it all. Um- Okay … and, uh, I used to, um, sit down with her and, like, go through it with her.
Doug: Like a family, uh, finance meeting.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but she was not, she was never interested in it, and she was just like, “I trust what you’re doing.” Mm. “Looks fine.” And so we stopped doing that. Okay. Um, and, uh, uh, that’s fine because- Yeah … I, I don’t, I don’t have a gambling addiction or anything. Yeah, yeah.
Doug: Um- And it works out. You’re pretty smart.
Yeah. You could use a spreadsheet. It
Sam: feels like it’s working. Um, like I said, it, it could probably be optimized a little bit better. Um, but yeah. It’s- Sure … it’s fine. And occasionally she’ll ask like, “How much money is in that fun fund?” I’m like- Mm … “Well, you could go look. Like, it’s-” “It’s not
Doug: hidden.” Yeah, yeah.
And Elizabeth, uh, kinda got me more involved ’cause I was kinda… I didn’t pay too much attention, and I’m, I’m more of a spender. Although, I mean, I saved fine-ish, but I don’t love budgeting and that sort of thing. So like, technically Elizabeth has a, like, could have taken over and I probably would’ve been like, “Okay.”
But I, I have a light interest and I do have opinions. Mm. So there was definitely, um, there’s definitely, like, friction, and the more sort of like conservative she is, the more I move in the other direction, so that we pull each other in the opposite direction- Yeah … which is not always good. But we’ve learned to meet, like- Yeah
we met in the middle, so it works out.
Sam: Yeah. I mean, I… So our budget is informed by conversations we’ve had about, like, what our priorities are. And so we do, we save aggressively because, um- Neither of us, I think, wanna work forever. Um, but we both, like, like, got a late start. Um, like, I went to grad school and then a, a postdoc, and like, so, like, I didn’t start making, like, actual grown-up money until I was in, I don’t know, I was, like, 32 or something.
Mm. And, uh, like, yeah, like we already said, Christie switched careers, and she switched careers into s- a career that isn’t super high-paying. Um, so, um, so yeah. So we felt like we needed to play some catch-up, um, on the savings front. And so our budget’s informed by that. We save aggressively. And then, um, whatever’s left over, I really just, like, track our historical spending for the different categories, and then if something, like, seems wildly off, I’m like, “Hey, what’s going on with our grocery budget?”
Or- Mm … or whatever it is.
Doug: Yeah. Gotcha. And w- number one, um, it’s really cool ’cause you were like, “Ah, I think we’re gonna be done with this in 10 minutes,” but- I, I … here we, here we are. Like, we’re actually, we’re digging into some details. If, um, do you know your savings rate? Mm-hmm. Are you willing to share the sa- like, you could tell us.
You don’t have to. Uh- You can just give us a range if- Yeah … you wanna be more private. It’s,
Sam: um, I don’t… It’s over 20%.
Doug: Okay.
Sam: Just
Doug: over 20%. Nice. That’s the kind of s- I mean, people like those de- kind of details, so. Yeah. And you g- you guys have two kids, and like, like you said, you kind of were slower to get started and make big boy money, I guess, doing that.
Very cool. Yeah. Well, and the funny thing is, like, I have no clue. I still don’t make a lot. I have no clue- Especially poor grad students … when, um, I have no idea how much we saved. I have no idea of the savings rates. Like, although we pr- I mean, you’ve seen all the houses that I’ve lived in and wherever we- Mm-hmm
have been. Um, we basically kind of locked in on an expense area and then just kinda, like, did not, as our income went up, we did not change that. We- Mm. Over time, housing costs has got a little more expensive, but since we’re five years older, even though both Elizabeth and I bought houses that were upside down and- Mm-hmm
horrible, um, to buy in 2005 when we each bought, um, it, it worked out okay. Obviously it worked out okay. Yeah. But, um, yeah, 20, over 20% solid. Very good. I think so. Yeah.
Sam: I think so.
Doug: Okay.
Longmont Pizza Crawl
Doug: Anything else finance related before we shift into cooking and food and some of the projects and things we bought? Yeah.
Cool. All right. So one of the things I end up, uh, talking to people about all the time is just, like, food or co- partially is, like, I’m hungry- Yeah … and I’m thinking about the next meal. And one thing we did today is, um, we did, like, a pizza crawl kind of thing. Mm-hmm. There’s a lot of good pizza places here in Longmont.
Mm-hmm. And we went to three different places, different styles, and y- we’ve… I filled you up. I ba- basically you were, you were like, “I can’t eat anymore.” Yeah, yeah. So I’ll, I’ll let you… Do you remember the places, the names of the places we went? Yep. Okay. So first place we went is, uh, Urban Field or Field, uh, Urban Field.
We’ll call it Urban Field, and it’s, uh, Detroit-style, and that’s what we got there. We didn’t talk about this beforehand, but can you rate it, uh, between one and 10? Or, or what were you gonna say? Go ahead.
Sam: I mean, so the, the problem, and the problem in quotes here- Yeah … with the first place is that we got a very untraditional pizza there.
We did, yeah. We got, like, a… It was like c- car- Carnitas- Yeah … street taco pizza- Yeah … or s- something like that. So I don’t know how to rate that- Sure … really. Um, it was good. Um, but it’s, it’s hard to stack up against, like, the other places which we’re, we’re we did get what, like- Traditional … we got a pepperoni pizza at the- Yeah
other two places.
Doug: Yeah.
Sam: Um- But it was good. Yeah, it was good. It was just fine. Um, I would’ve been perfectly happy with it if we hadn’t gone to, to other places right afterwards- Yeah … where it was like, “Oh, I like these better.”
Doug: Yep, and I will say I do enjoy a, like a pan pizza like that. Mm-hmm. We’re saying, um, you know, me, I grew up eating, like, Pizza Hut and, uh, still like it.
I mean, I am a simple person, and I can appreciate, um- That’s good … Pizza Hut. Yeah.
Sam: What, what are they, what’s the saying about pizza and sex? It’s, uh-
Doug: It’s like, uh- I’m just trying to think of something funnier to say. That I was, I wanted to mess it up. Funnier than the actual, yeah, yeah. But yeah, even bad pizza is still pretty good.
Pretty, pretty good, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I, I mean, I’m like, good ingredients. It, it… So I would recommend if you like Detroit-style, check it out. It’s pretty good. Yeah. Then we, uh, walked up the street to Antonio’s Pizza, which is New York style. So the next two places we got New York style, and I f- we got, I think we got a chi- or no, we got a pepperoni.
Mm-hmm. We had something with, I… It was, like, some sausage, like an Italian… I don’t know the name of the sausage on there. Or it was, like, a pepperoni type, but it also had balsamic and some- Yeah, I thought it was, like, a margherita pizza with- Like extra balls on something. Yeah. There was this, we, um- I didn’t pay too much attention to it- Yeah
I was just
Sam: shoving it down my throat.
Doug: They need to have, um, the names of… ‘Cause I was like, “I’ll have that one,” and then the pepperoni, and then the other one, which was a, a- another like street taco, um- Yeah. We had two str- like street taco pizzas today. Yeah. And it was like some corn on there. It was pretty good.
Anyway, pizza there, super good, like a traditional sort of New York style, and I thought it was, uh, great. I w- I mean, I’ve been like three times in the last month or something like that, so really good.
Sam: Yeah.
Doug: Then we continued on, uh, up the street there and went to Rosalie’s, which has been there for a fairly long time, and it was, um, again, another New York style.
And what did you think of that one?
Sam: I thought it was great. Uh, that was my favorite of the day. Uh, the, the cheese was good. The, uh, the crust was good, nice chew. And then as we talked about, like the- … the leoparding on the bottom- Mm-hmm … is, um, pretentious. Yeah. Uh, but like, you know, it’s got like the black and white spots ’cause it- Yes
it chars a little bit, uh, on the bottom, and that tastes really good to me.
Chasing the Perfect Char
Sam: Yeah. I also like, like when you burn steak a little bit on the grill- Yeah … I like the charred bit- bits or the- Yeah … the good bits to me.
Doug: And y- and obviously you don’t want all of it to be burned with- No, no, no … hence the leoparding.
But just- But just a little
Sam: bit … just the right amount.
Doug: It gives- Yeah, yeah … a contrast of the two. And the fla- like you said, the flavor is a good thing. Yeah, yeah. The little char and yeah. And at the end both of us were like, uh, Rosalie’s, like this New York style pizza is clearly better. Mm-hmm. Like there’s…
I mean, again, Antonio’s is super good, but I was like, “Oh, shit, Rosalie’s, it’s been a while since I’ve been there.”
Sam: Yeah. Maybe it’s not better, it’s maybe it’s just the one that we each preferred. I can definitely see how someone would be like, “That pizza’s burned. I don’t want that.” Oh, sure. Yeah.
Doug: And we’re, um, we’re not pizza experts, we’re just, uh, enthusiasts.
I’m a pizza expert. You are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pizza Steel vs Stone Debate
Doug: So the other thing we were talking about, and one, one of the recent purchases I made because, um, occasionally I’ll, um, I’ll watch food content on YouTube, and then there’s been this pizza guy on there and blah, blah, blah. A- anyway, I got inspired to get a pizza steel, so it’s a, you know, carbon steel, like heavy- Mm-hmm
instead of a stone. So the stones were really popular, um, maybe 20 years ago, and I’ve had a couple of them. I’ve used one on the grill, which I think a stone probably is the best thing to use if you have a super hot heat source and you’re at 900 degrees. So grill can get that hot. Oven, not so much. Yeah.
I’m kinda locked… I think ours goes up to, I think it only goes to 500, but it does have some convection feature. Most
Sam: of them are 500. I’ve seen- Um, it’s like a big deal when they, it advertise it goes up to like 550.
Doug: Right. Yeah. Yeah, a little extra. So ours is about 500, and I, I have been slightly struggling with the pizza.
So I’m not, I’m not like trying to recreate anything. I’m not trying to make it perfect or anything like that, but I’m like, “Ah, this is just not as done.” Like I end up having to cook it much longer than expected. Yeah. So probably maybe three times in the last year I’ve got the pizza out and I’m like, “All right, bottom looks good.
Like this looks okay.” And then I’m like, “Oh, in the middle… ” And I’m not like co- totally covering it with, uh, toppings or anything. I’m like, it’s a little, uh, like not quite, the dough’s not quite done- Yeah … in the middle. Um, and I’m like, “Ah.” I, it’s so disappointing ’cause I’m like, already cut the pizza- Yeah, yeah
and I’m like, I gotta throw it back in for a minute, so.
Sam: So, uh, yeah, ag- I’m not a pizza, pizza expert, but we had this experience, uh, in, we used to live in a little town in Pennsylvania that had like seven pizza shops for some reason. They had, there was nothing else there, but there were so many pizza places.
Our favorite did like a wood-fired, they had a wood-fired grill. Um, but o- only the small pizzas like got cooked to the right amount. Oh. Like a big p- it doesn’t seem to make any sense. Right. Like you, like the thickness of the pizza is the same, whether it’s a 12-inch or a 16-inch. But the 16 inches weren’t done, and so we got into the habit of ordering like multiple small pizzas.
Oh. Maybe just make your pizzas smaller.
Doug: I have been making them a little bit bigger. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. And so I, I watched a handful of YouTube videos, and then whatever fucking ads start showing up, like getting in my face- Yeah, yeah … reminding me about the stuff that I kinda looked at. And I was like, oh, you know what?
Uh, this does make sense. For, for the people that don’t cook, the stone is, um, it doesn’t conduct the heat as well, and the steel is much more dense. I mean it, I think whatever I ended up getting is 16 by 16 three-eighths inch thick. It weighs like 30 fucking pounds. Mm-hmm. The stone weighs like two pounds or whatever.
Yeah, yeah. So it’s holding all this heat, and it should transfer the heat much more effectively, even if it’s, you know, the 500 degrees, or maybe I have to put it at 450- Yeah, yeah … ’cause it like, there’s so much, um, heat in that stone. Yeah, it worries about burning. That’s- So, so yeah. I haven’t, um, I, I wait to buy things for a long time, and I, I was like, oh, you know what?
I haven’t gotten like any new cooking implement in a while. I’ve been making more pizzas and dough and stuff like that, and I’m like I can get it. It, it, it wasn’t too expensive. I think it was, like, 100 bucks. Yeah. So, and I can’t remember. Do, do you guys have a steel or you use a cooking stone? Uh, cooking
Sam: stone.
Um, we have… Christy bakes a ton. Yeah. A ton, a ton. Um, so we have multiple stones. Uh, but, uh, that doesn’t even matter because most of our pizzas we do outside on the grill- Okay … where there’s also a stone.
Doug: All right. Well, let’s talk about your grill and- Well, well- … what you, what you’re s- Oh, yeah. Yeah. Ask me more.
So,
Sam: yeah. So you mentioned that you had bought this steel earlier, but I didn’t ask any follow-up questions ’cause I- Yeah … I knew we were doing this. Yeah. I don’t actually know the answer. Do you have it or you have just ordered it? I’ve ordered it. Okay. So it should be here in a couple days. Okay. Yeah. So you haven’t
Doug: played with
Sam: it yet?
Doug: No. Okay. Not yet. Okay. Yeah, and it… I think Elizabeth is gonna be like, “What is in the oven?” And you have to help me move it, and- … it’s too heavy ’cause it will take longer. I mean, Elizabeth bakes- Yeah … a lot also. Not as much as Christy, but, like, she bakes quite a bit, and it will potentially interfere with some things that she’s dialed in.
I think she would just, like, have to let it heat up longer, but it definitely will be a heat sink- Yeah. Yeah … in the oven. Yeah. Once it’s hot, it will also keep the oven hot for much longer.
Sam: Yes.
Doug: But, um-
Sam: It probably will change things. Um, yeah, our pizza stone, baking stone, whatever- Mm … it lives in the oven- Yeah
100% of the time. Um, but I… Yeah. There are recipes where, like, you need to change the temperature rapidly.
Doug: Oh. So- Yeah … so you’re not gonna be able to do that. It… And we, um, and I briefly l- looked at, um, some cast iron because I, I like cast iron. I don’t know if you saw, and I don’t know if I’ve talked about it on the show, so I have a couple, like, Lodge cast iron.
I have a couple, um, Wagner, some, like, antique stuff. Mm-hmm. But a couple years ago, I was like, “I think I would like to have, like, a very large skillet.” So I got, like, a 13 and a half or 14-inch skillet. Mm-hmm. And it is great. Like, I tend to cook large volumes of food. However, it is, like, huge and heavy, and yeah, I think it must weigh 25 pounds or something like that.
Mm-hmm. So it pretty much, like, lives on the stove, and if I had to move it somewhere, it’s like I’d, I’d need to, like, put it on a shelf in a garage- Yeah. Yeah … or something like that. So that, that is a little bit of an issue. And to the point of, like, having the new steel, I think I probably will need to be like, “Hey, do you want me to just, like, move it out of here?
Because this is going to make, uh, an issue- Yeah … of turning on the oven every single time.” Yeah.
Sam: Yeah. You might need to, like, figure out some- pallet jack or something that she can move it on.
Doug: Yeah. But I’m looking forward to it. And, and, oh yeah, the punchline with the cast iron is, um, they do have, like, some large cast iron pizza- Mm
pans or whatever, but cast iron is not as dense as, uh, the carbon steel. Yeah. So, like, it’s better than a stone, but not as good as the steel, and I’m like, “I may as well just go straight to the steel.” Yeah. Go big or go home, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So we’ll see, uh, we’ll see how it goes. I’m looking forward to getting it, like, doing some pizzas.
I will try the smaller idea and just-
Sam: Yeah … see how it goes. Somebody who knows thermodynamics more than me can, uh, can comment.
Doug: It’s a very smart audience. Anyone out there, feel free to comment or send us an email to let us know. On, on my, uh, my empirical, uh- … assessment
Sam: of, of pizza from one pizza place.
Doug: Yeah. I mean, it, maybe it’s just, like, the, the mass, the mass of it on there, and- It could be, yeah … I don’t know. It could be, like, un- I mean, we’re assuming the heat on the stone is, or on the steel is even or whatever, but it might not be, right? Yeah, yeah. So maybe the middle’s hotter or I don’t know. Anyway, we don’t wanna think too hard about it.
It’s like doing math on the internet. That’s not what I’m here for. Yeah.
Grill Pizza on a Kamado
Doug: Okay, so you do your pizzas on the grill, and w- what are you cooking with these days? You could tell us the, the brand and the size and whatever details. Yeah.
Sam: I have a, uh, I have an SNS Kamado- Okay … um, which is, uh, a ceramic… Kamado is the style of cooker, so, like, Big Green Egg or, um, um…
What’s the red one? Yeah. I- Kamado Joe. Kamado Joe. Oh. Uh, those are the, the big, the big brands. Um, but it’s, it’s like that, um- Okay … just a smaller brand- Okay … of, uh, of ceramic cooker. I really like it. Um, I think it’s, like, a jack-of-all-trades kind of tool. Um, so I can smoke, like, big pieces of meat on it. I don’t think it makes as good of barbecue as, like, a dedicated smoker, but then I don’t have to own a dedicated smoker, and then I can do, um, like, high-heat grilling on it.
It’s probably not as good as, like, a dedicated grill for that, but I, again, then I don’t need, like, another grill. Um, and, like, down the line. So, like, pizza, like, I can do pizza on it, and pizza turns out good. Um, maybe not as good as a dedicated pizza oven, but then I, I don’t have to have a pizza oven out there.
So it’s a, it’s a single tool that I really like.
Doug: Yeah. Okay. Why’d you pick that one over, like, a Green Egg or some of the… Again, there’s a lot of different brands out there.
Sam: Yeah. Um, partially, m- huh, mostly it was the price point. Okay. Um, I don’t know what they’re going for these days, but when I bought it a decade ago, I think it was a decade ago, um, it was significantly cheaper.
Okay. For, like, the same size, similar number of accessories. They also have some… They had s- they had a different idea about where to put the fire in the firebox, this is really getting in the weeds- Mm-hmm … um, that I thought made sense. I don’t know if it does or not. Mm-hmm. But, um, I cook with it, and it, like, does a great job, so I’m happy
Doug: with how it turns out.
Uh- So is that, like, a, uh, t- to allow you to have, like, indirect heat more easily or something? Or, like, where do they put the…
Sam: Yeah. So in most of the Kamado grills, the, y- you l- you light the fire in the bottom of the thing. Mm-hmm. Right? And so the fire is under the food, and you don’t have a great way to, like, do multi-zone cooking.
Hmm. Um, that has since changed, um, from what I understand. They’ve… Right? They’re constantly coming up with different accessories to sell you, and- Yeah … different, like, firebox d- dividers are included in that. Um, but mine, they had this idea where the fire would go, like, almost in the middle of the grill. So it’s like it’s raised up from the bottom, and it’s in, it’s in its own little- Oh, okay
container over to the side. And so the meat for, like, smoking at least, is, um, almost at the same level of, as the fire. It’s just over to the side. And the idea, and I don’t know if this is true or not, is that the s- the smoke and the heat is, like, rolling off the fire and over onto the meat. So you get some, like,
Doug: convection-type action.
Sam: So you get… Yeah. That’s the idea at least. Uh, whether it’s true or not, I don’t know. Um, but like I said, I, like, I could, I can do, like, nice things with it, so- Sure … it works for me. Seems, seems fine. Yeah.
Doug: Gotcha.
Sam: Yeah. So that’s
Doug: what I do the pizza on.
Sam: Yeah.
Doug: Okay. Um- And then you just, like, load it up with charcoal,
Sam: and there’s a stone on there or whatever.
Yeah, so I, so when I do pizza, I don’t use that, I don’t put the fire in that raised firebox thing. I just build it in the bottom like you- Okay … normally would, and I put a shit-ton of charcoal in it.
Doug: Okay. And then you… W- like, what temp can you get it up to, or what are you, what’s your target that you’re aiming for?
Uh, it can,
Sam: it can get, it can, it can peg the needle- Hmm … um, which is at 900 Uh, I think that’s too hot.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Um, but so we’re usually aiming for, like, 750 maybe. Okay. 750. That seems to be
Doug: a good sweet spot. And then do you close it all the way when it’s cooking? Do you have to rotate it around- Uh … or?
Sam: Yeah. So, um, some of the other brands have these like… This, like, pie-shaped accessory- Mm-hmm … where it keeps the lid cracked a little bit, and then you can use it like a pizza oven. Yeah. Like, get the steel in there. I don’t have that. so yeah, I j- we just raise the, the lid, throw the pizza on, close it, wait 90 seconds-ish.
Um, maybe a little longer. Mm. And, um, and you… And then usually take it off. Um, the first one will be at, like, a, a little bit of a tester.
Mm.
Sometimes there’s more heat on one side than the other, and we’ll have to, like, okay, well, like, I’m gonna have to rotate these halfway through or, or whatever. Gotcha. It also changes over the cook.
Oh. Um, we’re, we’re usually impatient. And, like, I try to … I’m like, “All right, it’s pizza night.” So when we do pizza nights, we usually make a lot ’cause it’s like, like we were talking about earlier, like, you feel bad, like, wasting all that heat. Yeah. Even though, like, whatever. But, like, I had this thing lit up to 750, 800 degrees.
I don’t wanna waste it, so we end up making, like, a lot of pizza.
Doug: Yeah.
Sam: Maybe six or eight pizzas. Um, and I’m… Th- the ones at the end are always better than the ones at the beginning. I don’t know. The fire’s more mature. It’s, like, hit, like, everything’s- Yeah … seasoned and, like, hit, like, steady state in temperatures or what- whatever it is.
And so I’m always like, “Okay, I need to give myself more time.” Like, we’re gonna start grilling at 6:00. I’ll start, I’ll start the grill at 4:00. Uh, uh, but no matter how much time I give myself- It’s never enough … the, it’s never enough. The pizzas at the end are always better than the pizzas at the beginning.
So the kids get- But so you’re ma- … the early one. So you’re managing it. Yeah. Like, like, okay, the first ones took 90 seconds. The ones at the end, usually they take… Usually they go faster.
Doug: Okay. That makes sense. And yeah, it makes sense, like, the whole grill, the lid, everything is hotter, so it’s, like, radiating heat- Yes
uh, more evenly. Yeah. That’s cool. Okay, and then, yeah, I was gonna ask, like, you’re making, like, six to eight, so you have a few. You got plenty of leftovers. How big are these pizzas? Are these, like, 12 inch or something like that? What do you think that is? Probably 12 inch. Okay. 12. So kind of smaller. Yeah. So not super crazy.
And then since, uh, Christie is the, the baker, so she does the dough. Anything… Do you know any details of the dough or- She just gets it going … her fa-, I know her
Sam: favorite, her current favorite, uh, pizza recipe book is from a guy named Peter Reinhart. Okay. Um, and he’s got, I think he has more than one pizza book, and I think we have more than, I think we have them.
Um, but there, yeah, so, so, um, there’s a couple recipes in there that I, I know that she likes to use. Um- Okay … but they, they do vary. Um, the last time… So yeah, usually she makes the, the dough, and I’m, you know, the stereotypical- … guy outside dealing with the fire. But, um, sometimes I make the dough. Um, and the last time we did it, I made the dough out of that Peter Reinhart book, and I picked the, um, it’s like super thin, like super, like there’s one- Mm-hmm
that’s called like Super Thin. I picked that one. Um, and it was, it was super thin. Oh, wow. Um- Nice … and it was h- a little hard to, to handle, but, um, turned out great, so. Nice. Good job, Peter Reinhart, on your pizza recipes. Very good. Gosh, I, I hope it’s Peter Reinhart- … not the Anthony Reinhart or something.
Doug: That’s fine. Someone’ll tell us. The, um, yeah, and it’s cool. And, and I should probably, like we were chatting earlier, I have basically just been like making dough b- um, from… I don’t know how to describe it. I just throw the four ingredients together that are required. In- intuitive. Intuitive, that’s right.
Yeah. Thank you. Intuitive. It’s, uh, intuitive dough making, and it works fine. It alwa- like it always works out fine. Like I’ve made a lot of dough and bread, so I’m like, I can see when it’s coming together and the gluten and blah, blah, blah. And if I, you know, if I don’t get enough gluten development, then I do…
I, I mean, it’s kind of a mess later- Yeah … so, like I understand what I’m doing. But it will be better if I go back to the right way to do it, which is like use a scale, use the gram scale, and like make sure you kinda know what you’re doing. So when I get my- Yeah … pizza steel, I will measure shit out and like try to be a little more consistent.
Sam: I think where it’s really useful is once you like dial in something that works, if you ha- if you have written it down. It’s repeatable then. Yeah. Yeah.
Doug: Yeah, so it should be fine. I always end up with pizza, and it’s pretty good, and- Yeah, it’s always, it’s always good … it’s fine. Yeah. And you can tell it’s homemade and, I mean, a lot of times I’m doing like a multi-day like, uh, fridge fermentation.
So like the, it tastes really good- Mm-hmm … even if it’s not- you know, quite exactly consistent all the time. ‘Cause sometimes, like, I mean, r- really it’s best if you make the dough, like, three days ahead of time. Sure. And it’s like- Sure … are you guys planning that far ahead? Maybe. Maybe. Okay.
Sam: Every once in a while
Doug: we’ll like, ”
Sam: Yeah, let’s make pizza this weekend,” and, and get on top of it.
But no, usually not.
Coffee Gear and Espresso Mods
Doug: So one thing I wanna talk about is, uh, coffee. So you’re an, an avid coffee enthusiast. I am, too. I really, I got into it, um, more in the past. I’ve kinda lightened up a bit. But what kinda, what kinda coffee stuff do you have going on?
Sam: Um, yeah, I would… I don’t, I’ve never tried to describe myself, but like an, an avid, uh, uh-
Doug: Caffeine fiend
amateur avid- Yeah,
Sam: yeah … fan. Although I, my, I did, I was a barista in college- Oh, okay … for six months or so.
Doug: Okay. Yeah. So you know, you kinda know what you’re doing.
Sam: Yeah. Um, that’s probably where, like, I started being interested in it because that coffee shop actually sent us to, like, the roaster and, um, taught us how to taste coffee.
And, like, why? Why were they sending- You’re in college … 20-year-olds to, like… Yeah, what amounts to, like, uh, you know, coffee school. Um, but very cool. Very, very, um, interesting. Um, so, so yeah. So I’ve sort of always had an interest in coffee ever since then. Um, right now I have, yeah, a home espresso setup. Um, I have a bunch of different, uh, coffee makers.
Not, not like an insane number. Mm-hmm. But, um, I like, I make French press most mornings, uh, so I use that. I have a moka pot, I have an AeroPress, I have, uh, a couple other ones that aren’t springing directly to mind. Yeah. There’s a chemex. Some kind of pour-over
Doug: thing.
Sam: Yeah, pour, a V60. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Doug: Couple pour-overs.
Okay. Yeah. So day-to-day you’ll do a French press or something like that? Mm-hmm. Okay. And then with the espresso setup, ’cause I, I went to visit, uh, couple years ago now, but I think you had kind of just gotten it and you were… It’s, it’s fun to visit y- ’cause I know you’ll have, like, good coffee and, um, like, interesting beans and potentially, like…
I mean, you take care of it. And I’ll drink… I mean, I try and to… I enjoy good coffee, but I also wanna make sure that I’m not the person, hopefully you’re not this, uh, I’m not the person where I’m like, “Oh, this hotel coffee is not gonna do.” And- I have to go somewhere else, I’m like, “Ah, you know what? Instant coffee.”
What- whatever. Like, whatever’s in front of me- Yeah … I’m not gonna complain. I wanna make sure I don’t seem like an asshole. ‘Cause there’s other stuff I do that probably does seem like an asshole- … so I don’t want it to be the coffee thing. So, um, anyway, it’s fun to visit and tell the espresso setup, ’cause there’s a few people that will care a lot and know what you’re talking about.
I, I- Yeah … won’t exactly know.
Sam: I have a Rancilio Silvia. Mm. Um, which is an Italian, um… It’s, like, an entry-level prosumer model- Okay … kinda thing. Um, I got it because, um, it’s, um, there’s a highly active, like, mod community online, and I thought that might be interesting to, like, mess around with. So, um, like, adding, um, like, a PID controller to it to automate some of the, um, uh, brew times, um, and stuff like that I thought could be cool.
Um, and so, uh, yeah, that’s what I have. It’s a single boiler, um, setup, and semi-automated, I guess. Okay. I don’t know. Cool. I, I don’t know the, like, technical term for, like, what, what it is. Um, it’s not fully manual and it’s not fully automatic, so I’m gonna call it semi-automatic.
Doug: Okay. Cool. And did it deliver, like, what you expected?
‘Cause, I mean, like, at, at the level that you’re talking about, li- like any hobby, like, you’re getting to the point where, like, it’s sophisticated enough where people can do mods that are more advanced, that probably mimic, like, a much more expensive- Yeah … machine. Yeah. So, like, did this fulfill the need that you were-
Sam: Yeah.
So, uh, before I had this, I had, um, like, $150 whatever thing from probably Bed Bath & Beyond. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don’t know. Um, and so, like, what are you paying for with more expensive coffee equipment? You’re paying for, um, better temperature control, um, really. Uh, right, ’cause, like, virtually all… Anything that you look around that’s, like, heating, like, doing any kind of h- um, modulation of heat, like your air conditioning or, like, a space heater- Mm-hmm
in your room or, or a coffee machine. Like, it’s really just an on/off switch. It’s just like turn the thing on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off. And so anything, your oven, right? It’s gonna, like, cycle around, like you said, at 350, it’s actually gonna cycle around that number. The more expensive equipment Does a better job at keeping those cycles closer to the number that you want.
So, for coffee, that means, like, you can make small tweaks and understand that the changes that you’re- or the, yeah, the changes that you’re tasting are a result of, of your actions and not just, like, randomness from the machine ’cause you happened to catch it on the high cycle or the low cycle or whatever.
Doug: Yeah. Or like, the w- whatever, something was running in the house, so the voltage was different, so it was like- Yeah … acting a little different. Yeah, yeah. And so funny thing, like, I went over, had that stuff, and you have this, uh, there’s a whatever, the add-on controller that d- helps with the modulation that you were talking about.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, that’s exactly what it is. Yeah. Okay. That’s what it does. And I was like, “Hey, I know that company,” Auber Instruments, and I’ll give them a little shout-out. So if you, if you need temperature modulation, they’re, they’re the folks that you go to. So if you’re a big fucking nerd like Sam or myself, um, they have all kinds of different, um, products that do that- Yeah
for different purposes. So I have a temp controller, an external thermostat and temp controller for my electric smoker that literally takes care of the issue that you just described because it had a old just potentiometer- Yeah, yeah … that cycles on that temp, but it’ll go, what- whatever, it’s like a 75-degree swing.
Who knows? Yeah. I mean, it’s a cheap little part, and I got the controller, and I opened it up, and I, um, just took the switch, the potentiometer, the switch out of that and then hooked it up to my Auber Instruments- Mm-hmm … temp controller. So it’s plugged into the wall. Basically, the heating element is always on, and the cycling comes from the Auber Instruments.
Yeah, yeah. So it will dial it in, and you could see, like, it cycle it, and it — So when you, when you program it, it’s, like, locked in on that temp. Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s not, it’s cycling multiple times a second or something like that. It’s extremely accurate, way more accurate than I need. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but very impressive.
Sam: Yeah. It’s a, it, that was a nice upgrade. Um, without it, people — You can go online, and people will talk about, like, like, temperature surfing where, like … ‘Cause the thing t- shows you when the heater is on. Like, a, an orange light comes on. Oh. So they’ll be like, “All right. You wait, wait to pull your shot until two seconds after the light turns off,” or, or whatever it is.
I don’t, I don’t know. Um- Yeah, yeah … like, I don’t know Like, I’m into coffee, but I don’t do
Doug: that. Yeah. Uh. Yeah. Do you ever get into, uh, roasting your own beans? Mm-mm. Which sounds like a weird euphemism. Do you ever roast your own beans? It’s like, eh, sometimes, but, you know. Yeah. It’s only when I travel and- It’s been-
stay in a hotel by myself … it’s been
Sam: a
Doug: while. It’s been
Sam: a while. Uh, no, I haven’t done that. I know people that have done it, and, um, without exception, they’re like, “Eh.” Oh. I haven’t, I haven’t met anyone that’s like, “I roast my own beans, and boy, am I glad to, that I have done so.”
Doug: Oh. When I did it, um, I was like, “These are, this is really good.”
Yeah. But I don’t… Yeah, I don’t care as much right now, but it was, like, super fresh and very good. Oh, that’s cool. But, um, yeah, I guess I didn’t get into it as much. I mean, there’s so much good coffee out there that you can get it quite fresh now. I was wondering
Sam: if it’s just, like, a freshness issue- It is
for the rest of it. Yeah.
Doug: Yeah. I mean, I guess you can, you can get really high-quality beans that you may not have access to. And if you get super into it, I mean, you can obviously make your own blends based on- Yeah … those beans. But, um, I think maybe more people got into it. I feel like maybe the green beans are not as cheap as they used to be, although I haven’t looked in a long time.
Yeah, I don’t know. But coffee got a lot more expensive. Have you seen the prices go up in the last year and a half or whatever?
Sam: Yeah. In fact, so I used to do, like, a coffee order thing where they… You know, I, I joined what? Some-
Doug: Coffee of the month kind of thing … coffee
Sam: of the month kind of thing, and they would send me special s- special beans every…
I think I was getting them every 10 days or something- Okay … ’cause that’s how, how quickly I was going through it. Um, but yeah. Like, I was talking about, uh, paying attention to our budget- Oh. … a little bit. I was like, “Huh, this, the coffee budget is going up.” “And Christie doesn’t drink coffee. It’s only me.” I was like, “Uh, I guess I’ll stop- Yeah
with this thing.” Yeah. So I, I still buy, like, locally roasted bean. Like, I, I’m not getting, like, Folgers or whatever. I’m getting- Yeah … stuff from, from local shops. But it’s just coming from the grocery store now and not being shipped from- Okay … from who knows where.
Doug: Do you roughly know how much per pound or whatever, 12-ounce bag or whatever you’re paying?
Sam: let’s say 15. Okay. Um, probably plus or minus… It’s probably closer to 17. Okay. Plus or minus- Gotcha … three bucks. Gotcha.
Doug: Super interesting ’cause, like, probably a couple years ago that, it would’ve only been, like, maybe 11 or 12 bucks. Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s gone up a lot. Yeah. Yeah, kind of surprising. Like, again, I try not to be too fussy.
Like occasionally I’ll get a nice bag, especially if we’re on vacation or something like that. Um, but typically I’m getting… There’s a local Denver roaster, Boyers, and they have it at Sam’s. Mm-hmm. So I’ll get like the two or th- two-pound bag, and it’s like… I, I mean, I think it used to be like 18 bucks, and now it’s like 24- Yeah
or something. I mean, significant. It, it’s only a few bucks, but like when you see it I’m like, “Oh, wow.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that’s a lot.
Sam: We get, um, we, I get… Like I said, I’m the only one that’s drinking coffee in the house. Um, there’s a local roaster out of Charlottesville, um, but they carry it in Costco.
Nice. And so we’ll get like a two-pound bag- Okay … of that, of that stuff. Gotcha. That just, that makes me happy.
Doug: Yeah, yeah. That’s, um… It’s good to get the… I mean, it’s, I assume it’s a little bit fresher than if I get like Starbucks or whatever- Yeah … even if it’s the same price. Yeah. And I mean, a lot, I mean, depending on what you’re getting, like Starbucks.
Uh, what do you think of Starbucks beans?
Sam: I like their light roast. Mm-hmm. The, the blonde. Yeah, me too. Um- It’s pretty good … a lot better than anything else.
Doug: Yeah. And I, I mean, I like a, a decently strong, strong cup myself, but, um, I’m not into the super darker roast. I mean, it’s fine I think- Yeah … if you’re, if that’s what you n- need or
Sam: want.
But- It’s, they roast it dark because it’s easier to make espresso drinks out of it. Yeah. Yeah.
Doug: That makes
Sam: sense. Um, so when, if I have somebody over that, uh, I wanna try to impress, like I’m not, I’m not trying to do like a light roast with the espresso machine. Uh- Okay … unless, unless I’ve practiced and dialed it in, and I- Okay
and I have done that before.
Doug: Oh, you have practiced. Yeah. You’re like, “I gotta get like a…”
Sam: Yeah.
Doug: Such and such is coming over. All right, I’m gonna make- Did, did you practice when I was coming over? I was like, uh… ‘Cause I like a light roast or you just say yeah.
Sam: Well, yeah, yeah. Probably. I mean, you wanted to impress me.
I pr- What, what the problem I think is that I practiced so much that I used up all those beans.
Doug: They’re all gone.
Sam: Yeah. But that’s part of the fun of it. Uh, I, I, I really enjoyed like that coffee of the month thing. You would get different beans, like I said, it was like every 10 days, and, um, they’re all their own like special little snowflake, so dialing in the espresso for a particular bean and a particular drink that you wanted, um, was, was fun for me.
Doug: W- how would you vary it? Is it temperature? Is it, um… Or yeah, well, fill in the blank. Yeah, how would
Sam: you
Doug: vary
Sam: it? Yeah. Um, gri- you would dr- vary the grind first, um, to sort of dial in rough- roughly, um, and then you would, um, change temperature Okay Yeah. I guess there are f- there are four things that you can, that are, that are variable.
Temperature, time, temperature, time- Grind … pressure, grind size. Yeah. So, um, I can’t change the pressure on my machine, and most machines you can’t. Um, that’s sort of a constant. And, uh, there’s, like, manual espresso machines. Okay. There’s an Ita- there’s an Italian word that’s like, it, it, it means, like, la m- la mano, the hand.
The hand is one of the variables. I don’t fool with temperature too much. I sort of just, like, set the machine at whatever, um, unless I’m, like, really struggling to get something. Um, but so I’ll change grind size and, um, and time.
Doug: Gotcha. And
Sam: it takes
Doug: within a, a small window. Interesting. Pretty cool. Yeah, it’s a fun, fun hobby.
I’m staying away from it. Seems like something I would go too deep into, but, uh, I’ll, I’ll taste your stuff-
Sam: Yeah … whenever. It’s got, it’s got the same, it’s got the same appeal as other hobbies that you and I have both dabbled in, which is- Yeah … like brewing beer and smoking meat, where it’s like you’re trying to accomplish a thing.
Like, small changes can have big impacts. What I like about coffee as opposed to the other two things is, like, the feedback is immediate. Yeah. You don’t have to wait weeks to, like, figure out whether, like, the thing that you were trying was a good thing or a bad thing.
Doug: Yeah. Yeah, that is a, that is a fun…
It’s interesting ’cause, like, I enjoy baking and, uh, like, whatever, bread and pizza, so it’s like you can test that. It’s a little faster, but yeah, the, the coffee is just, like, it’s so fast to get, to get into. Yeah. So- Yeah. It’s like you, and it’s like, “Oop,
Sam: nope, nope.” Yeah. Let’s, let’s change something.
Wrapping Up and Shared Food Nerd History
Doug: So I think we’ve, we’ve covered a lot, and I think we probably need to wrap it up here.
I usually set a timer, uh, stopwatch so I can see how much time has elapsed, but- Okay. Yeah … you know, who knows? We’ve rambled on about- Who knows how long it is. Yeah.
Sam: Um, so- Actually, I, I, I, I would like to acknowledge that- Yes … these topics have been, like, a shared interest- Oh, yeah … for, for many, many years.
Like, Christie and I, like, really bonded over watching, like, Food Network stuff.
Doug: Oh, yeah.
Sam: And then, and then you, you l- you know, were there, too, and we went to, like, Alton Brown shows and stuff- Yeah, yeah … together when we were- Yeah … when we were in Atlanta.
Doug: Yeah. It was, um… Yeah, ’cause we were, I was like We can record a podcast, ’cause we, we also enjoy…
You told me about a podcast called Omnibus- Mm-hmm … a few years ago, and it was a slow burn, but I ended up, like, getting into it quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. And, uh- Hi, John. Yeah. Maybe, maybe you’re watching now. And yeah, so it was like, we can record, and yeah, so basically this was, like, half the stuff that we talked about earlier.
I’m like, “Of course we could record a podcast.” Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: We could do a whole show. Mu- much better than my, my other idea, which to, which was to tell you about the origin of the names of the days of
Doug: the week. Which is, I mean, that could be super interesting to someone, but- Yeah. Today is Odin’s day. Which is?
We- Wednesday. Wednesday. Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah. So this was great, and actually, I was telling Elizabeth, I was like, yeah, one of the… I remember talking to Christie. I was in my dorm at Georgia Tech- Mm-hmm … and talking to Christie. She was going to a different school at the time, and she was like, “Oh yeah, I went on a date with this guy who really likes the Food Network and Alton Brown,” and I was like, “Sounds like a winner to me.”
Yeah. Huge nerd also. Yeah, yeah. Uh, check. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks for joining me. Really fun, and, um, you’re, uh, off the grid. Uh, do you want people to follow you anywhere at all? No, you’re, uh… Yeah. No. Cool. Yeah, maybe we’ll record something again, uh, in the future, uh, when we’re… I often have recording gear when I’m traveling around, but I don’t wanna, like, mess up the hangout, but we had open time today, and it worked out perfectly.
Yeah, no, this was fun.
Sam: I’ve, I’ve not done anything like this before, so it was fun.
Doug: Yeah. You did a fine job. Thanks for joining me.